What i think, what could be great: A high number of players/bots seen at the same time in the server. What is the maximum?
I would love it, if there could be like 50 players (not only players, that includes bots also) at the same time.
New features and changes of upcoming patch 469e
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Re: New features and changes of upcoming patch 469e
There no limit in engine. Only some assumptions in game modes and other uscript code. You can implement own game modes and bots setup. And try use even 100 bots.
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Re: New features and changes of upcoming patch 469e
you can have 5000 bots on a single level, i've checked that
:barf:
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Re: New features and changes of upcoming patch 469e
Well, stock code use sleep for dead bots in amount proportional of count of bots.
So most of them simple dormant and sleep in dead state.
You can try SmartStockBots. It reset sleep delay to like 200 ms, or which set in ini.
With it I guarantee you get slideshow near 200, if even not 100 bots.
Auto merged new post submitted 1 hour 42 minutes later
133. DevNetTrafficLogs - new tool for debug replication
In 469e added new console command - DevNetTrafficLogs which useful for dump any replication info, include record/play demo.
Such tool very useful for track what come from replication. Together with UTrace it can be good for hunt down bugs.
Also there show size of send bytes and which properties on which actor, so this good tool for optimize net usage as well.
And since demos based on replications, this tool apply to demo play/demo record as well.
So can be used for debug demo play/record too.
Auto merged new post submitted 5 hours 23 minutes later
134. No Red Box on UTrace on server
In 469e UTrace heavily optimized, so it make near 10% impact to CPU load only. So you can use it whenever it need. For example on server, for track bugs, which appear only on server.
Note: produced amount of info into the log keep the same, so not turn it for long time, or space on disc ended and game server will ruin ini files, on attempt store them.
Auto merged new post submitted 10 hours 24 minutes later
135. EditActor from Log Window
In 469e you can use EditActor command in the Log Window.
This also work with dedicated server log window (called from systray on windows).
So now you can examine actor properties even on dedicated server, which greatly help for debug network stuff.
Auto merged new post submitted 7 hours 23 minutes later
136. Monsters respect movers on dedicated server
In 469e on dedicated servers work moving brush tracker. Which mean gameplay exactly same as in local play - monsters not see you through movers (doors) and not try shoot in you through doors.
Also this change mean same for all splash damage. it is not pass through movers, like be before.
So even if you fire redeemer into door, anything after this door will be untouched and undamaged.
Same as in local play.
However this feature optional and can be turned off in INI, if you still need old bad bugged behavior.
Auto merged new post submitted 6 hours 32 minutes later
137. TryRenderDevice new console command
In 469e added new console command TryRenderDevice, which allow you swap render midgame.
Very useful tool for compare renders performance in same conditions.
Or check if some renders acts in same way.
Auto merged new post submitted 8 hours 13 minutes later
138. Can't select hidden brushes with Shift+LMB
In 469e if brush hidden, you can't select it with Shift+LMB on texture of this brush.
Auto merged new post submitted 10 hours 10 minutes later
139. Meshes not disappear if center goes off-screen or behind camera
In 469e used proper rejection of meshes, based on their bounding box.
So mesh not disappear, right after it center goes behind camera, like it be before.
However such fix not free. Check every mesh for proper bounding box is more expensive, from use wrong, but simple check.
So this fix little reduce FPS. Difference more noticeable if on screen great count of meshes.
Auto merged new post submitted 8 hours 59 minutes later
140. Movers not flicker during move
In 469e movers not flicker, when move. This happen usually on complicated maps.
This change too can slightly reduce FPS. however there difference mostly not noticeable.
Auto merged new post submitted 5 hours 36 minutes later
141. Texture Pan never stop
In 469e panning of textures never stop. Which can be issue on previous versions. Any pan of textures eventually stop. More fast move texture, sooner this happen.
Auto merged new post submitted 9 hours 8 minutes later
142. Box Selection ignore camera actors
In 469e Box Selection not select any cameras, which belong to UnrealEd viewports.
This help work with actual level actors, not make mess with viewport camera actors.
Auto merged new post submitted 6 hours 40 minutes later
143. Uniform Shadows - shadows not depends from texture scale
In 469e add build option "uniform shadows", which make shadows independent from texture scaling.
So if you mix for example scale of textures 16 and 0.25, shadows still be consistent and seamless.
Auto merged new post submitted 11 hours 50 minutes later
144. Copy surface not copy dangerous flags
In 469e if you copy surface with properties, dangerous flags not copied.
This prevent destroy level and make unwanted things.
Auto merged new post submitted 6 hours 35 minutes later
145. Decals not glitch on specific edges
In 469e decals properly display on linear edges which contain immediate vertex in middle.
Auto merged new post submitted 4 hours 49 minutes later
146. Properly draw sprites visible in Canvas Portals
In 469e sprites properly draw in Canvas Portals. before that they can be missed at all (469d) or appear in left top corner of the screen, like if Canvas Portal located here, without any offset.
Auto merged new post submitted 8 hours 6 minutes later
147. Proper place pivot for brushes
In 469e when you place pivot in 2D viewport, 3D coordinate preserved from old pivot location. When before it reset to zero.
Which make this option almost useless.
But now you can properly adjust pivot in 2 viewports and it will appear in exactly desired location.
Auto merged new post submitted 9 hours 53 minutes later
148. Rotate vertices in Vertex Edit mode
In 469e you can rotate selected vertices around any desired pivot point.
Just use Ctrl + RMB drag in 2D viewports.
Keep in mind, vertices goes be snapped to grid, so for less distort brushes set grid size to smaller value or disable it at all.
Also be aware, distortion can cause planes with 4+ vertices be non-coplanar anymore. which will require tessellate them.
Auto merged new post submitted 21 hours 11 minutes later
149. Join Polys: fix BSP bugs and reduce Nodes on 40% (improve FPS)
Here example of use Join Polys tool.
In this example solved BSP bug, which produce overlapping BSP nodes, so this make impossible properly display decals in some spots.
This caused by out-of-grid brushes with tessellated surfaces (door brushes).
That produce a lot near coplanar surfaces, which start make bad BSP things, like a lot point on very close distances.
Join Polys solve this in few clicks. And additionally map now use 40% less nodes, which mean it greatly improve FPS on it.
So most of them simple dormant and sleep in dead state.
You can try SmartStockBots. It reset sleep delay to like 200 ms, or which set in ini.
With it I guarantee you get slideshow near 200, if even not 100 bots.
Auto merged new post submitted 1 hour 42 minutes later
133. DevNetTrafficLogs - new tool for debug replication
In 469e added new console command - DevNetTrafficLogs which useful for dump any replication info, include record/play demo.
Such tool very useful for track what come from replication. Together with UTrace it can be good for hunt down bugs.
Also there show size of send bytes and which properties on which actor, so this good tool for optimize net usage as well.
And since demos based on replications, this tool apply to demo play/demo record as well.
So can be used for debug demo play/record too.
Auto merged new post submitted 5 hours 23 minutes later
134. No Red Box on UTrace on server
In 469e UTrace heavily optimized, so it make near 10% impact to CPU load only. So you can use it whenever it need. For example on server, for track bugs, which appear only on server.
Note: produced amount of info into the log keep the same, so not turn it for long time, or space on disc ended and game server will ruin ini files, on attempt store them.
Auto merged new post submitted 10 hours 24 minutes later
135. EditActor from Log Window
In 469e you can use EditActor command in the Log Window.
This also work with dedicated server log window (called from systray on windows).
So now you can examine actor properties even on dedicated server, which greatly help for debug network stuff.
Auto merged new post submitted 7 hours 23 minutes later
136. Monsters respect movers on dedicated server
In 469e on dedicated servers work moving brush tracker. Which mean gameplay exactly same as in local play - monsters not see you through movers (doors) and not try shoot in you through doors.
Also this change mean same for all splash damage. it is not pass through movers, like be before.
So even if you fire redeemer into door, anything after this door will be untouched and undamaged.
Same as in local play.
However this feature optional and can be turned off in INI, if you still need old bad bugged behavior.
Auto merged new post submitted 6 hours 32 minutes later
137. TryRenderDevice new console command
In 469e added new console command TryRenderDevice, which allow you swap render midgame.
Very useful tool for compare renders performance in same conditions.
Or check if some renders acts in same way.
Auto merged new post submitted 8 hours 13 minutes later
138. Can't select hidden brushes with Shift+LMB
In 469e if brush hidden, you can't select it with Shift+LMB on texture of this brush.
Auto merged new post submitted 10 hours 10 minutes later
139. Meshes not disappear if center goes off-screen or behind camera
In 469e used proper rejection of meshes, based on their bounding box.
So mesh not disappear, right after it center goes behind camera, like it be before.
However such fix not free. Check every mesh for proper bounding box is more expensive, from use wrong, but simple check.
So this fix little reduce FPS. Difference more noticeable if on screen great count of meshes.
Auto merged new post submitted 8 hours 59 minutes later
140. Movers not flicker during move
In 469e movers not flicker, when move. This happen usually on complicated maps.
This change too can slightly reduce FPS. however there difference mostly not noticeable.
Auto merged new post submitted 5 hours 36 minutes later
141. Texture Pan never stop
In 469e panning of textures never stop. Which can be issue on previous versions. Any pan of textures eventually stop. More fast move texture, sooner this happen.
Auto merged new post submitted 9 hours 8 minutes later
142. Box Selection ignore camera actors
In 469e Box Selection not select any cameras, which belong to UnrealEd viewports.
This help work with actual level actors, not make mess with viewport camera actors.
Auto merged new post submitted 6 hours 40 minutes later
143. Uniform Shadows - shadows not depends from texture scale
In 469e add build option "uniform shadows", which make shadows independent from texture scaling.
So if you mix for example scale of textures 16 and 0.25, shadows still be consistent and seamless.
Auto merged new post submitted 11 hours 50 minutes later
144. Copy surface not copy dangerous flags
In 469e if you copy surface with properties, dangerous flags not copied.
This prevent destroy level and make unwanted things.
Auto merged new post submitted 6 hours 35 minutes later
145. Decals not glitch on specific edges
In 469e decals properly display on linear edges which contain immediate vertex in middle.
Auto merged new post submitted 4 hours 49 minutes later
146. Properly draw sprites visible in Canvas Portals
In 469e sprites properly draw in Canvas Portals. before that they can be missed at all (469d) or appear in left top corner of the screen, like if Canvas Portal located here, without any offset.
Auto merged new post submitted 8 hours 6 minutes later
147. Proper place pivot for brushes
In 469e when you place pivot in 2D viewport, 3D coordinate preserved from old pivot location. When before it reset to zero.
Which make this option almost useless.
But now you can properly adjust pivot in 2 viewports and it will appear in exactly desired location.
Auto merged new post submitted 9 hours 53 minutes later
148. Rotate vertices in Vertex Edit mode
In 469e you can rotate selected vertices around any desired pivot point.
Just use Ctrl + RMB drag in 2D viewports.
Keep in mind, vertices goes be snapped to grid, so for less distort brushes set grid size to smaller value or disable it at all.
Also be aware, distortion can cause planes with 4+ vertices be non-coplanar anymore. which will require tessellate them.
Auto merged new post submitted 21 hours 11 minutes later
149. Join Polys: fix BSP bugs and reduce Nodes on 40% (improve FPS)
Here example of use Join Polys tool.
In this example solved BSP bug, which produce overlapping BSP nodes, so this make impossible properly display decals in some spots.
This caused by out-of-grid brushes with tessellated surfaces (door brushes).
That produce a lot near coplanar surfaces, which start make bad BSP things, like a lot point on very close distances.
Join Polys solve this in few clicks. And additionally map now use 40% less nodes, which mean it greatly improve FPS on it.
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Re: New features and changes of upcoming patch 469e
150. Scale vertices in vertex edit mode
In 469e you can scale selected vertices (via hold Ctrl + LMB + RMB) against free-choose pivot point.
Such feature allow you transform part of brushes, for reach new shapes.
In 469e you can scale selected vertices (via hold Ctrl + LMB + RMB) against free-choose pivot point.
Such feature allow you transform part of brushes, for reach new shapes.
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Re: New features and changes of upcoming patch 469e
151. Change class of Mover / Brush
In 469e you can easy change Mover class. Even make Brush be Mover or vise versa.
This feature allow you easy correct Mover classes after add them.
So if you suddenly need AttachMover, it is not problem anymore.
Also this feature allow you convert some brushes to Movers. For example for resolve BSP errors.
Keep in mind: You will loose all incompatible settings, when convert between two classes.
In 469e you can easy change Mover class. Even make Brush be Mover or vise versa.
This feature allow you easy correct Mover classes after add them.
So if you suddenly need AttachMover, it is not problem anymore.
Also this feature allow you convert some brushes to Movers. For example for resolve BSP errors.
Keep in mind: You will loose all incompatible settings, when convert between two classes.
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Re: New features and changes of upcoming patch 469e
152. Keep Mesh Browser setup on open another map
In 469e when you load another map (or start new one), selection in Mesh Browser remain unchanged. Which include, zoom, camera position, anim sequence and anim frame.
Auto merged new post submitted 10 hours 12 minutes later
153. Improved Select Groups tool
In 469e Select Groups toll will be improved, for more comfortable usage.
Now selection preserved on refresh dialog. Also on clear dialog, it goes be in proper way, so editor viewports updates for reflect changes. And this can be undo if need.
Auto merged new post submitted 6 hours 16 minutes later
154. Bot not stuck on ledge
In 469e bots not anymore stuck on ledge, when try jump on sharp angle.
Before that, it be quite problem and can make your team loose, if your teammates stuck in such way.
Auto merged new post submitted 9 hours 13 minutes later
155. Stats for SOCKETS command
In 469e when you you SOCKETS command you will see stats per each channel.
This will allow you determine which actors consume which amount of bandwidth. And optimize server or mods.
Auto merged new post submitted 10 hours 9 minutes later
156. Uniform Shadows - another example
In 469e you can use Uniform Shadows - shadows which independent from texture scale on surface.
You can see on this example how inconsistent shadow on wall. That caused by different scale on stripes of wall.
However if you turn on Uniform Shadows, scale of surface not more affect to shadow detail level and all look seamless, as must be.
Auto merged new post submitted 7 hours 15 minutes later
157. Rebuild Movers during Rebuild map
In 469e feature for rebuild movers now include into full map build process.
So you not need anymore track manually if mover changed and need rebuilt.
Also this will allow you fix old bugged maps, simple by open and rebuild them.
You can always disable this feature in build config dialog.
Auto merged new post submitted 8 hours 1 minute later
158. Snake Align - another example
In 469e added snake align - align textures, which continue from surface to surface in seamless way.
In this example shown seamless align arc with few simple clicks.
Just hold Shift + Ctrl + Alt and click RMB for copy and LMB for paste.
For chain of surfaces not need copy each time, if you want continue align with currently pasted surfaces. Just continue click LMB.
Auto merged new post submitted 7 hours 22 minutes later
159. Show Group-Visible Actors
In 469e added new tool - Show Group-Visible Actors. This button show actors which not be hidden by any group in group browser.
That allow you hide part of actors, and not show them back, until you not decide to. Which improve work with huge maps.
In 469e when you load another map (or start new one), selection in Mesh Browser remain unchanged. Which include, zoom, camera position, anim sequence and anim frame.
Auto merged new post submitted 10 hours 12 minutes later
153. Improved Select Groups tool
In 469e Select Groups toll will be improved, for more comfortable usage.
Now selection preserved on refresh dialog. Also on clear dialog, it goes be in proper way, so editor viewports updates for reflect changes. And this can be undo if need.
Auto merged new post submitted 6 hours 16 minutes later
154. Bot not stuck on ledge
In 469e bots not anymore stuck on ledge, when try jump on sharp angle.
Before that, it be quite problem and can make your team loose, if your teammates stuck in such way.
Auto merged new post submitted 9 hours 13 minutes later
155. Stats for SOCKETS command
In 469e when you you SOCKETS command you will see stats per each channel.
This will allow you determine which actors consume which amount of bandwidth. And optimize server or mods.
Auto merged new post submitted 10 hours 9 minutes later
156. Uniform Shadows - another example
In 469e you can use Uniform Shadows - shadows which independent from texture scale on surface.
You can see on this example how inconsistent shadow on wall. That caused by different scale on stripes of wall.
However if you turn on Uniform Shadows, scale of surface not more affect to shadow detail level and all look seamless, as must be.
Auto merged new post submitted 7 hours 15 minutes later
157. Rebuild Movers during Rebuild map
In 469e feature for rebuild movers now include into full map build process.
So you not need anymore track manually if mover changed and need rebuilt.
Also this will allow you fix old bugged maps, simple by open and rebuild them.
You can always disable this feature in build config dialog.
Auto merged new post submitted 8 hours 1 minute later
158. Snake Align - another example
In 469e added snake align - align textures, which continue from surface to surface in seamless way.
In this example shown seamless align arc with few simple clicks.
Just hold Shift + Ctrl + Alt and click RMB for copy and LMB for paste.
For chain of surfaces not need copy each time, if you want continue align with currently pasted surfaces. Just continue click LMB.
Auto merged new post submitted 7 hours 22 minutes later
159. Show Group-Visible Actors
In 469e added new tool - Show Group-Visible Actors. This button show actors which not be hidden by any group in group browser.
That allow you hide part of actors, and not show them back, until you not decide to. Which improve work with huge maps.
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Re: New features and changes of upcoming patch 469e
The brightness for the zones without the actor (ZoneInfo).76. Properly merge Zones on overflow Zones count
Which brightness (ZoneLight/AmbientBrightness) is calculating, from the LevelInfo0 or ZoneInfo0 ?
Will it fix issues with the monsters (MH map) passively standing on the sloped brush and/or edge ?154. Bot not stuck on ledge
SkaarjOfficer just stared at me ...
Can we finally set a negative value for actor (Light) to create a locally dark spot ???. - new features not yet published -
Actor - Light/LightColor/Light Brightness
+ if positive value is multiplication of the ZoneInfo brightness and increasing the local brightness within the LightRadius and thus creating a brighter spot
- then negative value should decrease the local brightness (overriding ZoneInfo brightness) and will create a darker spot within the LightRadius (ofc, such calculated brightness value will never goes below 0)
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Re: New features and changes of upcoming patch 469e
LevelInfo.Man_With_No_Body wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 5:17 pm The brightness for the zones without the actor (ZoneInfo).
Which brightness (ZoneLight/AmbientBrightness) is calculating, from the LevelInfo0 or ZoneInfo0 ?
No. It is unrelated things,Man_With_No_Body wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 5:17 pm Will it fix issues with the monsters (MH map) passively standing on the sloped brush and/or edge ?
No. it is not how things work.Man_With_No_Body wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 5:17 pm Can we finally set a negative value for actor (Light) to create a locally dark spot ?
Anyway we can't introduce stuff, which not exists in old clients, it will break compatibility with them.
Exactly about light - it done as lightmaps. Which can't make negative light.
Auto merged new post submitted 3 hours 22 minutes later
160. Make Cave in few easy steps
That example of use various tools. Recorded on 469e.
1. First we need base shape for cave.
I use RubikBuilder for this: https://ut99.org/viewtopic.php?t=16136
That simple cube with randomization of vertices.
2. For make our cave loo less look as cube way, i rotate some of vertices.
3. Additionally I scale vertices in middle.
4. Now just add light. Tool Array used for make line of lights.
5. With use Rotate Actors tool and again Array with relative movement, position of lights randomized.
(Honestly there Rotate Actors can be applied for all 3 directions, not only yaw.)
6. Ah yes. Align to Auto make seamless align for texture, and we not need bother about align texture at all.
Auto merged new post submitted 9 hours 9 minutes later
161. Restore deleted brushes (sort of)
You can try restore removed brushes from level, from BSP geometry.
That method not new for 469e. It can be done even on 436, however 469e come with additional tools and improved BSP builder, which make things more easy.
Restore brush need be creative.
For start you need determine parts of maps and how you will restore them.
In this example is 2 parts: skybox and main part.
Skybox is simple subtract brush and nothing else.
So for restore it, I simple use Deintersect with big cube and subtract this brush.
I use copy + undo + paste back without offset, for add brushes, without change exist BSP.
Now for main part.
Since it complicated I use additive geometry. this allow preserve zones portals and other stuff, like sheets.
I subtract huge cube, and on top of it add brush, which make by intersect same cube with level.
All of this can be done even on 436 (maybe except paste without offset, you will need compensate it manually then).
Now come 469e feature - join polygons, which allow you reduce nodes count, and get more simple shape.
That all. Map use one gigantic additive brush, which you can try vertex edit.
Which is actually pretty hard, but better from nothing.
You can also split map into sections and do same approach via few such cubes.
Auto merged new post submitted 10 hours 10 minutes later
162. Improved UV align on Skeletal Meshes
In 469e greatly improved import skeletal meshes.
When you import skeletal mesh in 469e, it will be with perfect align in 469e or later.
And 2 times more precise for pre-469e.
For example, if you import skeletal mesh on pre-469e, and use 2048x2048 textures, you will get up to 7 pixels mismatch for texture UV on mesh.
When you import same mesh in 469e, you got up to 4 pixels mismatch for pre-469e, and no mismatch at all for 469e.
Amount of mismatch depends from texture size.
4096x4096 texture will make mismatch up to 15 pixels if imported on pre-469e and up to 8 pixels if imported on 469e and rendered on pre-469e.
Auto merged new post submitted 7 hours 10 minutes later
163. Restore deleted brushes on huge map
On huge map you can't subtract or add intersected brush. That will cause to nodes overflow or even editor crash.
So you need use trick:
- copy builder brash after intersect.
- reset builder brush to simple form for not clutter view.
- paste copied brush without offset,
- change CSG of pasted brush to desired one (additive or subtract).
Here is example of use this trick.
1. First remove unneeded unused brushes (if there any such)
2. We need see BSP bounds.
So I make big box.
Intersect it.
Copy it.
Undo intersect. Or reset builder brush to simple form.
Paste back without offset.
Now we see white brush.
That our BSP bounds.
3. We need find out cube size.
I use rectangle selection for get size.
Look at editor bottom line.
4. Now we can use our box.
For avoid node overflow, I use trick with copy paste, instead to add or subtract brush. just copy brush, undo and paste it without offset.
And after alter CSG type.
5. That all.
Remove helper brush.
Join polys.
Build level.
And we good to go.
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Re: New features and changes of upcoming patch 469e
164. Drag vertices faster for huge brushes
In 469e greatly increased performance when you drag vertices of huge brush.
In this video I drag vertices of brush with 32 000 vertices.
469d fell laggy, when 469e is pretty smooth.
Auto merged new post submitted 20 hours 1 minute later
In 469e greatly increased performance when you drag vertices of huge brush.
In this video I drag vertices of brush with 32 000 vertices.
469d fell laggy, when 469e is pretty smooth.
Auto merged new post submitted 20 hours 1 minute later
https://github.com/OldUnreal/UnrealTour ... seNotes.md
The Windows and Linux patches now ship with dpJudas' VulkanDrv
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Re: New features and changes of upcoming patch 469e
165. Show mesh Skeleton and Bounding Box
In 469e you can show in mesh browser Skeleton (with or without bones names) and Bounding Box (BB) as well.
Bounding Sphere also displayed.
That feature help modders track BB for meshes and correct it if need. BB used for mesh rendering rejection. So if it wrong, mesh can disappear prematurely.
Skeletal meshes use one BB for whole mesh. So you need correct it manually for all your animations, which you use.
Now it really simple and you can visually control results.
In 469e you can show in mesh browser Skeleton (with or without bones names) and Bounding Box (BB) as well.
Bounding Sphere also displayed.
That feature help modders track BB for meshes and correct it if need. BB used for mesh rendering rejection. So if it wrong, mesh can disappear prematurely.
Skeletal meshes use one BB for whole mesh. So you need correct it manually for all your animations, which you use.
Now it really simple and you can visually control results.
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- Location: Australia
Re: New features and changes of upcoming patch 469e
Woohoo, Vulkan has landed!
Not that I expect any rendering miracles, but it's a great step for future proofing!
Not that I expect any rendering miracles, but it's a great step for future proofing!
ShrimpWorks
Unreal Archive - preserving over 25 years of user-created content for the Unreal series!
Unreal Archive - preserving over 25 years of user-created content for the Unreal series!
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Re: New features and changes of upcoming patch 469e
166. 720 FPS into 920 FPS in few clicks
On exactly this map (DM-ASDF-UT4) tool Join Polys reduce node count on 59% or in 2.4 times less.
That lead to increase FPS on start zone from 720 to 920. Which is +28%.
OFC that is very good case, but still it is impressive result just for few clicks in editors.
On exactly this map (DM-ASDF-UT4) tool Join Polys reduce node count on 59% or in 2.4 times less.
That lead to increase FPS on start zone from 720 to 920. Which is +28%.
OFC that is very good case, but still it is impressive result just for few clicks in editors.