◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by sektor2111 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:25 am

I did not study spam-log in 436, but... definitely when DevPath shows a message Pawn goes nowhere until devs are resuming something internally - perhaps that ClearPath called somehow is helping. That custom trigger... it's a game with non-players too after all :omfg: .
All I have to say paths-net here is badly messed up - map has design and it's a waste. But I'm not sad, Assault it's not my game, if I well recall I deleted all stock Assault maps from my private playground. If some day I'll turn this into a DM all Navigation will be reconstructed in a limited range.
MapGarbage it's the story teller

Code: Select all

Jerks: Node swJumpPad5 generates a very small path.
Jerks: Node LiftExit10 generates a very small path.
DistancesListing: ====== Paths lenght report reachSpecs based ======
RangeInterval:  	- Length 50-200 UU    = 577 Paths;
RangeInterval:  	- Length 200-400 UU   = 1593 Paths;
RangeInterval:  	- Length 400-600 UU   = 776 Paths;
RangeInterval:  	- Length 600-800 UU   = 387 Paths;
RangeInterval:  	- Length 800-1000 UU  = 245 Paths;
RangeInterval:  	- Length 1000-1250 UU = 0 Paths;
RangeInterval:  	- Length 1250-1500 UU = 0 Paths;
RangeInterval:  	- Length 1500-1750 UU = 0 Paths;
RangeInterval:  	- Length 1750-2000 UU = 0 Paths;
RangeInterval:  	- Length > 2000 UU    = 0 Paths.
ScriptedDeduction: Interval 600-800 UU having 387 paths might be desired Scan Range.
ScriptedDeduction: Missing paths can be covered with intermediate Nodes.
OftenSeen: From 3578 paths checked, the most of paths were in range 200-400 UU with 1593 paths.
Desc: Current stats data won't be accurate at all in maps with custom paths having various user made reachSpecs or
Desc: using a wide range of paths lengths. Decreasing Range in certain cases will gain lost links.
DescJunks: Short paths under 50 UU aren't very useful. 2 paths might need to be moved or excepted.
DescJunks: The presence of many such paths shows overcrowded spots which might need to be optimized because this
DescJunks: is producing useless junk data.
Skipping: 464 paths were skipped being LiftCenters always having 500 UU and InventorySpots which usually are having
Skipping: really small paths and results are not very relevant from them for establishing Scan Range.
I would go for 600-700 UU losing this way a lot of processing and looking well which inventories can be excepted from being linked.
Either way removing nodes very closer having same reachable options and covering map mainly with 1200 UU paths. Extra paths can be wiped manually with PathsLinker if map supports a trip through 227 without to ruin textures...

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by TankBeef » Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:16 pm

I don't play too much assault either, but that one, and the other two from the Forts of Time pack are really fun, at least for me. There is Mothership by Derdak2Rot and OceanRunner by Hostile (I have met him online on the servers, he plays a lot and he is great, a very worthy opponent). No freezing at all from these two.
I also had freezing with FNB's Spaceport, both DM and DOM, but only with 469a, no 469b or 436. The interesting thing is that with this one, the log came out empty. :? Whatever caused it got fixed in 469b, and so I closed that report, but remains a mystery to me. So something was modified in 469a, and again in 469b, and I don't know what it was. :lol:

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by 1337GameDev » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:41 pm

I'm curious....

Is there a way to increase the bsp limit? (Not that I've hit it's current limit)

Just curious on general improvements to content limitations for upcoming patches.

I noticed that the BSP limit is 65536 (2^16) so it's likely a 16-bit integer internally.

Is this a limit hardcoded as it's simply a limit of hardware back in the day, or a limit on the algorithm implemented of BSP rendering itself?

Modern hardware could easily handle this as a 64bit integer reasonably well actually, and I'd love larger maps (or maps that sinply have more brushes for detail). Ideas?

And I do understand that this would make new maps incompatible with older versions.

Maybe a map format change that's compatible with older versions but shows a message that the map is incompatible on full load (eg: a default map format with a box and it disables player spawns via an actor).

I feel this could be worthwhile to avoid a crash on older versions, but also add support for this.

Ideas? I know this is probably low priority, but figured it'd be a neat idea and curious on thoughts.

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by Feralidragon » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:52 pm

It's possible to increase it: Unreal 227 itself has a much higher limit.

This limit is hardcoded in the game itself, and in the current UT version (469), namely the editor itself (Unreal Editor 2.2), you can temporarily go over that limit during build time (I have a map that does go over the limit during build, up to around 70k or so, but then it ends below that limit).

The main reason why it's not increased is pretty much what you stated: older game versions would just crash when attempting to load a map using more than 65k BSP nodes.
You cannot get around this in old versions as far as I am aware, since it's really hardcoded behavior.

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by 1337GameDev » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:15 pm

Feralidragon wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:52 pm
It's possible to increase it: Unreal 227 itself has a much higher limit.

This limit is hardcoded in the game itself, and in the current UT version (469), namely the editor itself (Unreal Editor 2.2), you can temporarily go over that limit during build time (I have a map that does go over the limit during build, up to around 70k or so, but then it ends below that limit).

The main reason why it's not increased is pretty much what you stated: older game versions would just crash when attempting to load a map using more than 65k BSP nodes.
You cannot get around this in old versions as far as I am aware, since it's really hardcoded behavior.
Is it possible to have a new map format that essentially "merges" 2 maps - and on older versions they wouldn't parse the "extra data?"

Eg: the first map is a basic cube, with an actor for control of stawning and drawing of a message stating the map is made for a newer version of ut. On newer game versions, it'd see the format and parse the "larger" map which is essentially a "2nd" map out of the normal file format boundaries that the new version sinply loads instead of the first map.

I've seen this kind of thing before when changing file formats, as well as this idea used for b&w vs color tv signals back in the day.

Ideas?

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by OjitroC » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:59 pm

1337GameDev wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:41 pm

Modern hardware could easily handle this as a 64bit integer reasonably well actually, and I'd love larger maps (or maps that sinply have more brushes for detail). Ideas?
I'd love larger maps as well but wouldn't one possibly run up against the '1000 navigation nodes searched from ...' limit and the 'Breadth path list overflow from ...' error which can result in crashes (or undesirable bot behaviour) plus the 3K ReachSpecs limit?

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by 1337GameDev » Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:34 pm

OjitroC wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:59 pm
1337GameDev wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:41 pm

Modern hardware could easily handle this as a 64bit integer reasonably well actually, and I'd love larger maps (or maps that sinply have more brushes for detail). Ideas?
I'd love larger maps as well but wouldn't one possibly run up against the '1000 navigation nodes searched from ...' limit and the 'Breadth path list overflow from ...' error which can result in crashes (or undesirable bot behaviour) plus the 3K ReachSpecs limit?
Well can this be increased, and extra pathfinding added, such as A* and other optimisations for large nodes....? Just a thought, as idk the underlying engine code.

Or even just subtrees for nodes and caching to help with pathing?

I've done that before in AI problem solving for optimizing path lengths in a constructed maze 🤷‍♂️

Hmm

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by sektor2111 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:14 am

1000 is hard-coded, also that 500 Paths List and 200 for inventories if I well recall.

These can be dynamically mapped based on some configured parameter like that Adminlogin action.
[Engine.UnPath]
DevPathPower=SC_UsingLowMode, SC_UsingMidMode, SC_UsingHighPerf, SC_Custom
[SC_Custom]
PathsNumber=xxx
BreadList=xx
InvPaths=xx
All capped internally based on available memory - reserving 30% - and logging action for "geniuses" not knowing what they do. To not forget that cube where pawns enter the network, where the searching starts and which can be written based on fast check to the nearest traceable node like MBot does LOL, entering the network even from 3000 range in plain fields in UE1 not UE4 or elsewhere, and I'm not done with the code (I don't know how to detect a ramp vs dumb air nodes and finding a valid ground between these).
You cannot tell me that you can create an array but cannot change 3 numbers :loool: .
Don't ask me why these devs which are exclusive server-side cannot be adjusted. The most of 436/451 and newer 469 admins don't even care about Bots and then, they don't have these used as long as they run empty servers.

What I could do so far was using long range paths for covering large areas - long routes - but only XC_Engine can use that network as long as it goes over boundaries... which are hard-coded not Performance based.

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by OjitroC » Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:25 am

1337GameDev wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:34 pm

Well can this be increased, and extra pathfinding added, such as A* and other optimisations for large nodes....? Just a thought, as idk the underlying engine code.
Even if it can, is it appropriate to go down the route of creating content for UT99 that can only be used with a particular version? Since it is reasonable to expect the player base to contract rather than expand over time, does one want to actively annoy and potentially alienate those people in the current player base who, for one reason or another, do not use the latest version of UT and so possibly reduce the player base even further?

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by sektor2111 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:52 am

Changes at SERVER-SIDE Won't affect any 436 player if are wisely implemented - you can read this multiple times.
:wth: Don't you get that 451 already has policies since 2004 which are not affecting 436 player unless this player is part of restrictions ? It simply works.
Enlarged bans at 255 places, adminlogin abuse prevention and kicking, etc. All these are SERVER related stuff, 436 can stay as it is 100 years and will still play in 451b server whenever wants that.

Other Evidences concerning Server-Side-Only adds:
MH-GardenOfDeath... revised and pathed. Works with Bots in a XC based server but not in 436 standalone client - more exactly Bot won't work but game is not crashing, Dev it's just capped by Engine without any issue. Do you really want to play it with Bots ? - Go add "powerz" or... use "trigger version".

If you want to see the story ALIVE I can add said map in MGS server. There Bot Support is mandatory and Player 436 can play it without problems. A.I. processing is exclusively SERVER task NOT client, all data pointing pawn's direction is not client's business - location is replicated, animations, etc. but not RouteCache and other data which is completely USELESS for client concerning decisions of CPU based entity.

Either way "Large Nodes" I don't get what is that and what for. I'm talking about long paths or More paths not about "DrawScale". The rest of blabbering toward BSP and Polys limits should NEVER be touched unless 436 player will get hurt for brain-farts - it's only UE1. UE1 allows 100 UNR Episodes for a story, DO USE this way, that simple. In other hand UT4 is waiting for you...

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by OjitroC » Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:45 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:52 am
Changes at SERVER-SIDE Won't affect any 436 player if are wisely implemented - you can read this multiple times.
:wth: Don't you get that 451 already has policies since 2004 which are not affecting 436 player unless this player is part of restrictions ? It simply works.
No TBH - as someone who plays solely offline, I'm not sure why I should know that or, indeed, that I need to know that or even need to understand what it means :P
sektor2111 wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:52 am
The rest of blabbering toward BSP and Polys limits should NEVER be touched unless 436 player will get hurt for brain-farts
This is what the discussion is about rather than pathing limits - 1337GameDev raised the possibility of 469 increasing the current 65K BSP node limit and I merely suggested, inter alia, that there may be 'pathing' limits that might have an impact on the playability of large maps that exceed that BSP limit.

So the discussion is more about whether raising that limit is appropriate and what impact it might have on players, on-line and off-line (because, although you may be able to deal with pathing issues on your server, ordinary users playing those maps off-line won't be able to).

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by 1337GameDev » Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:02 pm

Honestly, I still dislike the idea of greatly hindering what can be done to affect v436 players....

I feel it's easy enough to get people to update if there's compelling content and awareness to do so.

Yes, it "limits" the playerbase as it's another "barrier," but I feel the impact is decently minimal given the game's age, and that it doesn't really impact people playing on steam much.

Obv it can limit what they play if they join an online server --- but installing a patch is easy enough if they truly care to play this older game.

Mods, community content and changes to a base game are quite common and I feel most users know this, especially with Minecraft being popular.

My 9yr old nephew asked me how to install mods for minecraft.

I sent him a link to where he can download them. He figured it out in an afternoon of tinkering.

Making an easy installer for patches is easy to do as well.

I feel the barrier of "don't upset the v436 players with content that they can't access with a free patch" is going a bit TOO far in the idea of making this patch backwards compatible....

There's going to always be quirks and issues with a patch working with an unpatched client, and I just feel it's really limiting in it's existent and possibility of we can't make some changes simply on the idea that older versions can't take advantage of....

Just my thoughts... But I know the idea of "epic doesn't want crashes for v436" but I feel they likely wouldn't care.... When it comes to maps, mods, etc that are newly released..... And not the base game content / chaos ut and relics.

Just my thoughts I guess.

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by Neon_Knight » Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:25 pm

I love how there are people demanding to break compatibility without considering all the consequences of doing so and treating these consequences as non-important things.
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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by papercoffee » Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:52 pm

1337GameDev wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:02 pm
Just my thoughts I guess.
It is very simple ...Epic does care and the devs of 469 run the risk that they get taken away the agreement when Epic doesn't like what they have done.
The only rule given was "Don't break the compatibility with 436." (yes that's a very short synopsis)

Anything that shut off 436 users and force them to update or else they can't play on those updated servers is not wanted by Epic.

Maybe in some unknown future will Epic decide that this limits are not longer necessary. But not now and not tomorrow ...or anywhere in the next years.

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by TankBeef » Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:07 pm

papercoffee wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:52 pm

The only rule given was "Don't break the compatibility with 436." (yes that's a very short synopsis)

Anything that shut off 436 users and force them to update or else they can't play on those updated servers is not wanted by Epic.
True, and that is really unfortunate. 😒 I can imagine all the possibilities of game improvements if it wasn't for this obstacle. But oh well, it is their call after all.
Now, they already have their Fortn...oh nevermind, I better not go there. :roll: