◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by 1337GameDev » Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:37 pm

Neon_Knight wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:25 pm
I love how there are people demanding to break compatibility without considering all the consequences of doing so and treating these consequences as non-important things.
You're phrasing this as if I'm throwing a tantrum and demanding it.

I'm merely asking questions and simply disliking that versions after v436 need to be compatible with v436 (and not new versions being compatible with older versions).

It just really gets me down that this effort is hindered so much by making future patches be compatible with v436.

And as a user stated, they are correct. It's epic's game, license and rights, and we shouldn't break their rules and get the opportunity to improve the game taken away....

It just sucks that it's greatly limited by this rule, when it could be so much more, over merely wanting v436 users to install a patch.

But in the end, yes, it's their IP and their rules. So we don't have a choice.

It just sucks, you know?

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by sektor2111 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:35 pm

Yeah, it sucks and used over 20 years... just because requires NORMAL LOW resources not NASA machines.

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by sektor2111 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:39 pm

OjitroC wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:45 pm
sektor2111 wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:52 am
Changes at SERVER-SIDE Won't affect any 436 player if are wisely implemented - you can read this multiple times.
:wth: Don't you get that 451 already has policies since 2004 which are not affecting 436 player unless this player is part of restrictions ? It simply works.
No TBH - as someone who plays solely offline, I'm not sure why I should know that or, indeed, that I need to know that or even need to understand what it means :P
If you don't host any server is not exactly your problem :pfff: - patch is FOR ALL: SERVERS and PLAYERS - not for being selfish. And no, Player 436 is playing in servers adjusted with ONLY server-side things wisely applied and doesn't have issues - RTFM some admin manuals if you need more information and UT Update Notes, either way this blabbering really has no purpose.

Even OFF-Line, using v436, MH-GardenOfDeath is one of those USELESS-FOR-BOT-MAPS, thanks to mapper having no clue about UE1 capabilities. This has nothing to do with any patch. If a future patch can run map this is a benefit not a loss. Map is done and it's not crashing so it has compatibility because it doesn't do rejections at playing it OFF-LINE or ON-LINE.
Last edited by sektor2111 on Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by 1337GameDev » Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:44 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:39 pm
OjitroC wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:45 pm
sektor2111 wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:52 am
Changes at SERVER-SIDE Won't affect any 436 player if are wisely implemented - you can read this multiple times.
:wth: Don't you get that 451 already has policies since 2004 which are not affecting 436 player unless this player is part of restrictions ? It simply works.
No TBH - as someone who plays solely offline, I'm not sure why I should know that or, indeed, that I need to know that or even need to understand what it means :P
If you don't host any server is not exactly your problem :pfff: . And no, Player 436 is playing in servers adjusted with ONLY server-side things wisely applied and doesn't have issues - RTFM some admin manuals if you need more information and UT Update Notes, either way this blabbering really has no purpose.
This seems a bit too hostile....

I feel this isnt what we want users to experience on this forum.

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by sektor2111 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:47 pm

1337GameDev wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:44 pm
This seems a bit too hostile....
And ? That :P it's self-explanatory - like I don't know what is about, but let me jump inside discussion only for background noise posting emoticons.

AND for you, CRASHING v436 when 469 it's not fully stable it's the last thing wanted in community, after 21 years, we have to ruin game just because we do have coding issues ? NfoServers confirmed that won't change repositories until the patch is DONE and FULLY operational. Users already told that this is a no go.
Last edited by sektor2111 on Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by 1337GameDev » Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:50 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:47 pm
1337GameDev wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:44 pm
This seems a bit too hostile....
And ? That :P it's self-explanatory - like I don't know what is about, but let me jump inside discussion only for background noise posting emoticons.
We don't want to push users away from the community and should represent ut99 players in good light.

It's also not respectful to other users, even if you're frustrated and could be justified.

I've been on many forums where people yelled at me for legit questions....

And I never played that game again.

I don't want that experience for anybody else, especially for a beloved game like ut99. I want every player to feel welcome.

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by sektor2111 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:55 pm

I don't yell at users, I'm trying to explain what is doable vs what is not recommended based on my experience. I'm not posting only for the sake of posting. Here is about UT469 not about "I don't understand this and that" and neither about people.
1337GameDev wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:50 pm
I want every player to feel welcome.
Exactly this point is vanished when all structures are changed - when discussion is selfish oriented ( I don't need to know server stuff because I don't care about servers / I need more because 436 is too limited and it sucks - for 20 years ). Player 451 already has issues when is trying to connect a 436 server. This should be a lesson for everyone. 451 shows a bit of "How To" and a "never do this" as well - they happily ruined Editor and player's backward compatibility.

Next Patch Options - two stages - just a random thought:
1) A 469 exclusive dedicated server - ONLY server - perhaps here can be done more things excluding assets which are not needed in a server +
2) A 469 player only version - compatible with any previous server versions and StandAlone game-play.
Perhaps for me this is a mature solution. Samples FileZila -> Server and Client are two things and so on. Apache is a server, Explorer is browser accessing the server.
Maybe I'm wrong here but... I'm trying to think a bit out of box.

And if it comes about people, let's say that when spam posting takes place instead of a serious and a bit of tech discussion, I won't be interested to share any idea anymore if purpose is making fun for nothing. I can block this section of forum and then I won't even see if anybody is spam posting sentences for the sake of posting - perhaps others will do this as well - without making noise since developers is not like they read any opinion from here as long as topic is hijacked and pointed elsewhere out of 469 patch in each two-three pages - let's break 436; why not break 436; OMG, we must break 436. The only thing earned here is LOSING PLAYERS, admins closing servers, rental companies making less money - or maybe I'm wrong :noidea .

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by Feralidragon » Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:57 pm

Epic was not the one who originally enforced the 436 network compatibility requirement, it was Anth (the project lead) who proposed it, and that was because it seemed a good point to add for Epic to actually accept the agreement with as little attrition as possible, which they did, so it has to be followed.

Compatibility does make sense, especially from a community made patch that, thus far, cannot even be distributed in the main channels the game is sold.
And if you cannot distribute it in the main channels, then you're guaranteed to have 95% of all players still running the version they bought, meaning that only about 5% of the players would likely download and apply the patch, with most of them being actually over not being able to run the game, but really wanting to play it (which has been the case for a lot of people).

The entire patch team is composed entirely by 2 developers, and that's 2 developers with real jobs, real lives, etc, and they are already taking an obscene amount of their free time just to work on fixing the game.
There are other 2-3 from Unreal 227 that also provide some feedback and such, but the entirety of the heavy lifting is performed by these 2 developers, and at least one of them (also Anth) often contributes back to 227 as well, and even other games like Deus Ex and Tactical Ops.

These patches are long overdue, not because of the lack of new features, but because both the game and the engine as a whole is riddled with problems.

A lot of people act like UE1 is somewhat stable software: it isn't, it never left the beta state it was left in at 436, and severely degraded over time with modern hardware and OSes, and thus far the 469 releases themselves haven't been that stable either, they have just been more stable than 436, which is by itself a testament on how much road there's still ahead before we get a version that we can actually consider as "stable".

So that's where all the effort is, and will remain so for the foreseeable future, and which I have already mentioned several times, to the same people discussing here, and it's starting to get repetitive.
There's absolutely no point whatsoever in even bringing the possibility of features or how to manage them from one version of the game to another, without solving most of the base game problems first, it's that simple.

I would also like all sorts of features, arguably far more important ones than most of the ones suggested here thus far (the kind that have a real deep impact in the actual features developed thereafter from those), and even wrote about some of them in the private repo, but for the time being they are wishes and wants, and nothing even to be considered for now, because there's just too much work already still needing to be done in the base game, and even the engine itself, and they cannot even bring in more developers because that's not how it works.

If the game ever gets to a point where it's actually considered "stable" enough for features to be something to consider, then it will also be easier to potentially try to get the patch through the main channels for players to automatically update, since that way they will actually get a working game without any issues whatsoever, which is the most important thing about an actual "patch".

And maybe at that point things like "features" could be something to discuss and actually develop, but until then there's really no point in even debating this, at all.

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by OjitroC » Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:01 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:55 pm
And if it comes about people, let's say that when spam posting takes place instead of a serious and a bit of tech discussion, I won't be interested to share any idea anymore if purpose is making fun for nothing. I can block this section of forum and then I won't even see if anybody is spam posting sentences for the sake of posting - perhaps others will do this as well
Spam posting!?? Posting for the sake of posting!!? You didn't quote the rest of what I said which was very much to the point of the discussion and was indeed serious.

Surely we're allowed to be a little bit jocular now and again? (Note : The use of :P indicates I am not being entirely serious and is that such a big deal?). This forum would dry and dull if confined to arcane discussions about code and reachspecs - it would also be little populated.

Anyway I agree entirely that backwards compatibility is essential, as I have alluded to in my contributions on that topic (though, as Ferali points out, such discussions are ultimately futile).

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by sektor2111 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:09 pm

Now, tech point is that Editor can be improved as long as IT IS NOT entirely part of the "GameEngine" - visible already. Editor is supporting features and making maps FULLY operational in any 436 version. Today by example I could fix using an UScript function all PrePivot data of brushes resulting a better BSP build, this can be done directly in 469 at C++ Level with expanded options - I cannot access all C++ stuff from inside UScript but I think next days I'll try to see if I can use that "foreach AllObjects" from XC, if it will be helpful, I promise to no longer bother you about 469... if 469 won't be that good and featured as expected I can wait for a 470, not a problem after all :).
Last edited by sektor2111 on Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by 1337GameDev » Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:12 pm

Feralidragon wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:57 pm
Epic was not the one who originally enforced the 436 network compatibility requirement, it was Anth (the project lead) who proposed it, and that was because it seemed a good point to add for Epic to actually accept the agreement with as little attrition as possible, which they did, so it has to be followed.

Compatibility does make sense, especially from a community made patch that, thus far, cannot even be distributed in the main channels the game is sold.
And if you cannot distribute it in the main channels, then you're guaranteed to have 95% of all players still running the version they bought, meaning that only about 5% of the players would likely download and apply the patch, with most of them being actually over not being able to run the game, but really wanting to play it (which has been the case for a lot of people).

The entire patch team is composed entirely by 2 developers, and that's 2 developers with real jobs, real lives, etc, and they are already taking an obscene amount of their free time just to work on fixing the game.
There are other 2-3 from Unreal 227 that also provide some feedback and such, but the entirety of the heavy lifting is performed by these 2 developers, and at least one of them (also Anth) often contributes back to 227 as well, and even other games like Deus Ex and Tactical Ops.

These patches are long overdue, not because of the lack of new features, but because both the game and the engine as a whole is riddled with problems.

A lot of people act like UE1 is somewhat stable software: it isn't, it never left the beta state it was left in at 436, and severely degraded over time with modern hardware and OSes, and thus far the 469 releases themselves haven't been that stable either, they have just been more stable than 436, which is by itself a testament on how much road there's still ahead before we get a version that we can actually consider as "stable".

So that's where all the effort is, and will remain so for the foreseeable future, and which I have already mentioned several times, to the same people discussing here, and it's starting to get repetitive.
There's absolutely no point whatsoever in even bringing the possibility of features or how to manage them from one version of the game to another, without solving most of the base game problems first, it's that simple.

I would also like all sorts of features, arguably far more important ones than most of the ones suggested here thus far (the kind that have a real deep impact in the actual features developed thereafter from those), and even wrote about some of them in the private repo, but for the time being they are wishes and wants, and nothing even to be considered for now, because there's just too much work already still needing to be done in the base game, and even the engine itself, and they cannot even bring in more developers because that's not how it works.

If the game ever gets to a point where it's actually considered "stable" enough for features to be something to consider, then it will also be easier to potentially try to get the patch through the main channels for players to automatically update, since that way they will actually get a working game without any issues whatsoever, which is the most important thing about an actual "patch".

And maybe at that point things like "features" could be something to discuss and actually develop, but until then there's really no point in even debating this, at all.
Well stated. I'll keep any suggestions about breaking v436 backwards and forwards compatibility to a minimum, as this is the stage the patch is in right now. Thanks for being civil and straight to the point and sorry for any derailing or repetition.

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by 1337GameDev » Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:19 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:55 pm
I don't yell at users, I'm trying to explain what is doable vs what is not recommended based on my experience. I'm not posting only for the sake of posting. Here is about UT469 not about "I don't understand this and that" and neither about people.
1337GameDev wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:50 pm
I want every player to feel welcome.
Exactly this point is vanished when all structures are changed - when discussion is selfish oriented ( I don't need to know server stuff because I don't care about servers / I need more because 436 is too limited and it sucks - for 20 years ). Player 451 already has issues when is trying to connect a 436 server. This should be a lesson for everyone. 451 shows a bit of "How To" and a "never do this" as well - they happily ruined Editor and player's backward compatibility.

Next Patch Options - two stages - just a random thought:
1) A 469 exclusive dedicated server - ONLY server - perhaps here can be done more things excluding assets which are not needed in a server +
2) A 469 player only version - compatible with any previous server versions and StandAlone game-play.
Perhaps for me this is a mature solution. Samples FileZila -> Server and Client are two things and so on. Apache is a server, Explorer is browser accessing the server.
Maybe I'm wrong here but... I'm trying to think a bit out of box.

And if it comes about people, let's say that when spam posting takes place instead of a serious and a bit of tech discussion, I won't be interested to share any idea anymore if purpose is making fun for nothing. I can block this section of forum and then I won't even see if anybody is spam posting sentences for the sake of posting - perhaps others will do this as well - without making noise since developers is not like they read any opinion from here as long as topic is hijacked and pointed elsewhere out of 469 patch in each two-three pages - let's break 436; why not break 436; OMG, we must break 436. The only thing earned here is LOSING PLAYERS, admins closing servers, rental companies making less money - or maybe I'm wrong :noidea .
You were literally using a angry yell emoji.

Your tone conveyed condescension.

I get it that is frustrating, but if you want this community to be a welcome place, you should realize you're doing this.

Also, the mockery of "omg, let's break v436" isn't helpful. It's not productive and comes across rude.

I don't care that you thought my questions and discontent with the current epic agreement on the patch (which I'll keep in mind on future posts) was frustrating.

There's no need for condescension, mockery, and other uncivil ideas.
And if it comes about people, let's say that when spam posting takes place instead of a serious and a bit of tech discussion, I won't be interested to share any idea anymore if purpose is making fun for nothing.
This isn't productive either. Asking implications and ideas for future patch considerations and driving home the idea that this patch isn't at that stage yet is what is helpful, which another user communicated to me effectively.

I understand it's frustrating to hear similar questions, or things that you find obvious, but please don't be condescending to other users. It really drives people away from the community.

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by Barbie » Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:54 pm

Full quote? Why do I have to read that twice?
"Multiple exclamation marks," he went on, shaking his head, "are a sure sign of a diseased mind." --Terry Pratchett

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by OjitroC » Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:06 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:09 pm
if 469 won't be that good and featured as expected
If you have ideas for 'features'/enhancements then post them at GitHub - other people do!
1337GameDev wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:19 pm
And if it comes about people, let's say that when spam posting takes place instead of a serious and a bit of tech discussion, I won't be interested to share any idea anymore if purpose is making fun for nothing.
I understand it's frustrating to hear similar questions, or things that you find obvious, but please don't be condescending to other users. It really drives people away from the community.
I thought that was directed at me? No, it won't drive me away but I must confess I did find the tone a little ... (expletive deleted), how can I put it, annoying.

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Re: ◄► Unreal Tournament v469b Patch Release ◄►

Post by 1337GameDev » Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:21 pm

Barbie wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:54 pm
Full quote? Why do I have to read that twice?
Sorry, it's finnicky on mobile. The site will select the wrong button, or reload if i try to select a smaller quote... :/ Probably my dumb browser (Pixel 3xl - chrome). :thuup: