unrealkillers.com

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Feralidragon
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Re: unrealkillers.com

Post by Feralidragon »

Well, if unlagged feels bad (didn't try yet, so I can't say much about it), then that must be because the code is not very well built or is limited by a few engine bugs that may have an impact on this imho (and I can actually think in what the real problem may be).
I mean, how many of you play other online shooters? I guess a lot of you guys.
How many of those games have ZP? None, zero, 0.

All the popular online shooters, specially the Source and UEngine 2-3 based ones, all use "lag compensation" algorithms, and it seriously works, and the visual effect it's almost the same as with "zp", plus is by far more reliable and secure, and more importantly, flexible, while zp can be cheated rather easily, it's rather limited and it doesn't even work that right either.
Nothing against zp itself btw, when I played in uK's and other zp servers it felt fine and the admins don't have much of a choice if unlagged is that bad, it's just that it's possible to have something way better and so far all I see is effort in zp and none in improving something like "unlagged" or potentially a good mix between both... quite a shame really.
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Re: unrealkillers.com

Post by JackGriffin »

The main feedback I have gotten Ferali is that unlagged can still "miss" from the client's perspective and at the end of the day any miss on the client is just not acceptable. I think that's unreasonable but it's how the players who have used it feel and why it never has gained traction.
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Feralidragon
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Re: unrealkillers.com

Post by Feralidragon »

JackGriffin wrote:The main feedback I have gotten Ferali is that unlagged can still "miss" from the client's perspective and at the end of the day any miss on the client is just not acceptable. I think that's unreasonable but it's how the players who have used it feel and why it never has gained traction.
That's exactly what I was thinking the problem could be in my previous post (because ping is not accurate, plus the players are often simulated client-side and their position is often not exactly the same as in the server).
The thing is, even for that, there are solutions, some of them to choose from actually.
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Re: unrealkillers.com

Post by Higor »

Who's coding unlagged?

Let's combine our pow... knowledge and make it better.

I may start researching a way to unlag the Pulse Gun.
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Re: unrealkillers.com

Post by UT99.org »

medor wrote:
Higor wrote:Who's coding unlagged?

Let's combine our pow... knowledge and make it better.

I may start researching a way to unlag the Pulse Gun.
http://www.unrealadmin.org/forums/showt ... t=Unlagged
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Re: unrealkillers.com

Post by JackGriffin »

I'll tell you that I'm interested in almost all UT stuff except for this. I strongly dislike anything that alters a players game in this manner. UT was built to run on modems, lag is part of the game, and learning to lead depending on your ping is all part of UT's charm for me. These mods make you play more like a human triggerbot.
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Feralidragon
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Re: unrealkillers.com

Post by Feralidragon »

JackGriffin wrote:I'll tell you that I'm interested in almost all UT stuff except for this. I strongly dislike anything that alters a players game in this manner. UT was built to run on modems, lag is part of the game, and learning to lead depending on your ping is all part of UT's charm for me. These mods make you play more like a human triggerbot.
20ms player vs 200ms player... game is on... :ironic2:

Basically:
- if 20ms player hits fire at the exact same time as 200ms player, the 20ms always gets the shot, the 200ms don't if he gets killed;
- if both find each other at the same time in the server, the 20ms one will see the 200ms first and will have 20ms time of reaction, while the 200ms will see the player 180ms later, and the actual client-server reaction will be delayed further 200ms, which in the end is 380ms (almost a half of a second);
- ... and there are other problems

With lag compensation, the 200ms player can be on par with the 20ms ones. There will be always a small disadvantage to the 200ms one anyway, but lag compensation systems lessen that up greatly.

Play any more competitive shooter rather than coop, and you will know what I mean and why personally I agree with such measures to "fight the lag", it just makes the game much more fair for everyone, no matter where they are playing from.
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Re: unrealkillers.com

Post by JackGriffin »

I fully understand the argument behind your position but it's not acceptable to me to be playing with a 50 ping and not be able to see exactly what is going on. Ghost hits and clear misses that result in a kill ruin it. If someone has a 200 ping then that's on them and my game shouldn't have to be unreal (natch) to accommodate them.

It's just an opinion Ferali, the same as yours, so I don't really understand the coop poke? Just because I enjoy that more doesn't diminish my understanding of freestyle DM play nor invalidate my position. All 'competitive shooters' now use artificial aiming to (very) subtly enhance the players shooting ability while UT does not and that's why you feel the difference. This is a dirty little secret of this entire generation's FPS and why the people growing up in it can't tolerate older, pure games like UT that do not use it.

Google something like "aiming assist" and once you get past the aimbots and the cheat boards you'll start to find technical articles where this is quietly discussed, and has been for a long time but most players have no idea they are being helped in the first place. It's been proven over and over that if you don't help out the human player they feel the game is "just too hard to hit someone".
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Feralidragon
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Re: unrealkillers.com

Post by Feralidragon »

Aren't ghost hits and clear misses the exact problem with high pings?
I sure had those a lot on Sponge's combogib server several months ago, which is non-ZP
If the same still happens with lag compensation methods, then there's a problem with the algorithm made, and not the concept (different engines, better and worse algorithms for this, like anything else), plus lag compensation methods often have "ping limitations", so a 1000ms player won't be able to kill a player he was supposed to see 1 second ago (because at times the advantage can shift if the ping is too damn high).

Look, I didn't try to poke you with the "coop" thing, it's just I know it's your preferred shooter gamestyle, am I wrong? The thing is: play something more "competitive", like CoD, AVA, Blacklight, and others. You said yourself that you don't like to play "competitively" at some point I believe, correct me if I am wrong, hence your stance imo, hence I touching the coop gamestyle.
Of course, in the end it's *also* a matter of opinion, and yours is as valid as is mine ofc, but the truth is the fact someone has an high ping highly influences his/her gameplay and that's a fact, and most times those people simply have no way to get better pings, so should just they live with it and be owned with low pingers most of the time, or should we try to develop something to make the game *fair* ?
It's like saying that a race is just a game to try to arrive first, and that it's fair to someone to start running from a closer place relative the finish line than the other.
That's what the whole issue is about.

Btw, I do know what "aim assist" is, that's made mainly for consoles and not for PC games, so that argument doesn't really fit in here.
Just try a pc version of CoD or Blacklight, try to snipe a camper or another stopped player and place your aim just barely off, even for 1 pixel... you will 100% miss the target. If they had aim assist you wouldn't miss and I and other sniper players would make so many headshots the developers would have to nerf the snipers.
The thing is that without aim assists, console gamers wouldn't hit a thing because they have to move their view with the gamepad, while pc gamers don't need it in the first place as they would a mouse instead so that thing is generally non-existent in pc games, unlike you're trying to claim.

Also, most other modern shooters have a slower player movement, without dodging or any of that stuff like UT has, and those generally are filled with high firerate weapons, you combine both and then it's obvious why UT is harder, it has nothing to do with "aim assists", which again, are only for the console versions of said games.
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Re: unrealkillers.com

Post by Higor »

Man, even with 200 ping I used to rock it on the HSFace some time ago, nice opponents, competitive matches until...
One or two dudes with 30 ping that instead of playing CTF sat down in front of our base with a rifle killing anything that moves and not letting anyone enter their own base.
How did they do it? Crouching and strafing at precise intervals that confuse all high pinging players.

So yeah, ghost hits? Don't care, when a low pinger figures out how to move to always avoid fire from someone with > 170 ms ping it becomes an impossible task to put him down, only via prediction and strategy, and that's not applicable in open field, therefore the only way to do this, is to perform a hit from the client's perspective and as far as I know it doesn't count as assist.
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Re: unrealkillers.com

Post by $carface »

I'd be willing to take part in testing this on mainstream server. I tried it on Combo and the feedback was terrible. However, on an NW server, the feedback might be different.

I think the biggest problem is that people are used to ZP and have adjusted their game to ZP so when using Unlagged they call it laggggg.

Anyway, we have some talks amongst us to be releasing another server and this may run Unlagged. How long depends on the feedback....
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Re: unrealkillers.com

Post by JackGriffin »

Unlagged can never be what ZP is, no matter how you coded it because it's server-side. ZP has spoiled any sort of other ping compensation because the high-ping players will discard anything that doesn't give them every hit every time. The first miss will make them want to go back to ZP.

Schlong and I tested unlagged and neither of us were very impressed. ZP is far superior and that shows more as the ping gets higher.
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Feralidragon
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Re: unrealkillers.com

Post by Feralidragon »

ZP: The client decides the hit;
Unlagged: The server decides the hit;

ZP is easy to cheat with the right tools (if ACE doesn't detect them that is), Unlagged not. The best would be have a mix between ZP and Unlagged, you get the good hits of ZP with the security and safe-checks of Unlagged. If you miss the shot with this setup (assuming you have a good aim ofc), then you're either cheating the client position or the server is lagging and the admin should look into it.

As long there's ZP, if anyone builds something to adjust the client view of the player to your shots, you don't even need an aimbot, that's the serious question in all this.