tearing with VsyncOFF, lag with VsyncON?

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mist
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tearing with VsyncOFF, lag with VsyncON?

Post by mist » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:23 pm

Hello old and new fans of ut99 :)
Sorry for my English.

I have big question. I try tuning my ut99 but i have no success.
1. I have full GOTY UT99 on 2cd and clean fresh install
2. Win7x64(all updated and clean), Corei5, GF560ti(last driver), samsung monitor 24(60hz), A4tech mouse 750BH
3. Try all from here viewtopic.php?f=6&t=373 OGL and D3D from here http://www.cwdohnal.com/utglr/
i have smooth movement then vsyncON(SwapInterval=1 or -1) BUT this smooth cause mouse lag with ogl37,35 and d3d9
and if i set vsyncOFF(SwapInterval=0) movemet mouse very quick and response BUT i have huge tearing picture on screen
Help me how resolve with?

main parameters I played with, that affect for lag and tearing
RefreshRate=60(59 or 0)
FrameRateLimit=60(75,90,100,120,150,200)
SwapInterval=0(1,-1)

ps with default ut99 ogl and d3d i have HUGE speeds
pps with d3d10 online severs say - that CHEAT and kick me
ppps i try ON or OFF UseTripleBuffering but i don't see difference

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Re: tearing with VsyncOFF, lag with VsyncON?

Post by papercoffee » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:39 pm

Wrong section pal ...this section is for Suggestion, Criticism, Questions about this page. :wink:

@Shade @Dr.Flay @UnrealGecko I suggest to implement a "help" section for this forum. Or to delete the "Questions" from the title of this part here. It tends to irritate non English speaker. :mrgreen:

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Re: tearing with VsyncOFF, lag with VsyncON?

Post by Shade » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:56 pm

I moved the topic to "General Discussions" and renamed the Forum "Suggestions, Criticism, Questions" to "Suggestions, Criticism, Feedback".
I don't think we need another subforum.

Okay, back to topic. And welcome to our forums, mist! I hope someone can help you with your queston.

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Re: tearing with VsyncOFF, lag with VsyncON?

Post by mist » Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:05 pm

Thanks! :)
waiting for support because i am worn out tuning up ut99 :ironic: :noidea :ironic2: :what:

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Re: tearing with VsyncOFF, lag with VsyncON?

Post by Metalfist » Mon Oct 17, 2016 8:50 pm

Have you tried applying the Dual Core fix? viewtopic.php?f=58&t=681&p=25236
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mist
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Re: tearing with VsyncOFF, lag with VsyncON?

Post by mist » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:29 pm

thx for reply
And what this fix do? Only change the processor Affinity? No its not help.

Merged double post:
hmm. I have not yet understand, but patch 451b some help
Last edited by Metalfist on Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: merging double post

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Re: tearing with VsyncOFF, lag with VsyncON?

Post by papercoffee » Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:29 am

patch 451 is only useful when you never want to make maps, because this patch brake the Editor.
mist wrote:thx for reply
And what this fix do? Only change the processor Affinity? No its not help.
It fixes the problem that UT can only run on one CPU core (it's an old game). And if you try running it on more cores can UT behave very odd.

And please don't make double posts. When you are the last poster and want to add something use the Edit button in the upper right corner of your post.

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Re: tearing with VsyncOFF, lag with VsyncON?

Post by Higor » Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:36 am

XC_Engine can single-handedly solve this problem.
All you have to do is be willing to use it.

Let me know if you're going to do it because right now you need a beta build.

EDIT:
If the CPU affinities are giving you problems, you may also need a new launcher.
I made one that uses this https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/librar ... s.85).aspx (which is present in late Unreal Engine 3 games)
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Image unreal://46.228.199.205:7788

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Re: tearing with VsyncOFF, lag with VsyncON?

Post by mist » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:25 am

papercoffee wrote: It fixes the problem that UT can only run on one CPU core (it's an old game). And if you try running it on more cores can UT behave very odd.
i can do this by alt-tab and manual set processor Affinity for ut99 in taskmanager
papercoffee wrote: And please don't make double posts. When you are the last poster and want to add something use the Edit button in the upper right corner of your post.
ok sorry
Higor wrote:XC_Engine can single-handedly solve this problem.
All you have to do is be willing to use it.
Let me know if you're going to do it because right now you need a beta build.
and how i can use XC_Engine?

upd
i found XC_Engine here http://unrealtournament.99.free.fr and install through instructions(copy files and edit ini) but 1) i do not see difference with patch 451 2) Romanian TDM server kick me - it say that XC_Engine is hack or cheat

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Re: tearing with VsyncOFF, lag with VsyncON?

Post by Higor » Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:25 am

XC_Engine's home is here.
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5624

The beta build you'd need to use is here:
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5624&start=825#p91939

This launcher doesn't have the recovery screen popup/driver selection but it pretty much keeps your tickrate perfectly stable outside of ACE servers if combined with XC_Engine.
You can set the renderer's frame limit to 0, and instead enable XCGE's frame limiter by typing 'fps x'
MiniLauncher.7z
(36.97 KiB) Downloaded 69 times
PD:
Servers that kick you are usually using Anthchecker.
Clearly the admin got stuck in the past.
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Re: tearing with VsyncOFF, lag with VsyncON?

Post by Dr.Flay » Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:33 am

Things to bare in mind.

Try a smaller screen size, not the maximum you can do.
Smaller sizes will offer faster speeds.
Your monitor is running at a slow 60Hz. You may be able to set that higher than your frame limit.

Limit your FPS to something below 60, not over unless you can increase the speed of the monitor.

Vertical Sync off
If you try to generate and display images faster than the monitor can get through in 1 second, you will see tearing as you move around, because it has to give up part way through drawing a frame, to catch up with where it really is now.
My monitor runs at 120Hz while I run a UT game at half that speed. I have no problem with tearing.

V.Sync on
The GFX card will wait for the monitor to finish before throwing new frames at it, so this also means the game will run slower than it could, but it will be smooth.

OpenGL has an extra triple buffering option to handle the difference in monitor and render speed, try that if you use OpenGL (If you have nVidia then you should be using OpenGL)
It will be an option in your windows driver config.

Often monitors are installed using Generic or PnP driver, which only contains the standard sizes and speeds.
See if there is an installer for your monitor. If so it will include an ini file and colour profile. The ini file will add any missing sizes or speeds to the Windows monitor adjustments.
Even with a crappy old LCD monitor I can run it at 75Hz


As for the problem with being kicked from servers, this is because many server admin do not keep up with new developments, so have not white-listed the modern updates.
All you can do is ask them to update, or use a server that does not have anti-cheat mods.
I cannot use most ACE protected servers because I use the latest renderers from OldUnreal, and so simply ignore them.

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Re: tearing with VsyncOFF, lag with VsyncON?

Post by Higor » Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:55 am

FPS limiting done by render can go horribly on non-ACE servers and offline due to these renderers using the same timers stock ut99 uses.
If you happen to have a CPU that changes frequencies or simply has desynced cycle counters (AMD) the renderers can cause big problems.

If he's getting screen tearing even after properly setting up a frame limit, then he may have one of those two problems stated above.
Using XCGE's limiter + launcher timers will most likely make his game run as it's intended.
Also, the original ut99 renderers never implemented frame limiters so this is also a solution for that.

The UTGLR renderers having frame limiting capability is mostly a hack/workaround, the original engine should have implemented a global frame rate limit setting but this part was obviously not properly taken care of, even in UT 2k3 where the function that decides tickrate may even crash the game if you're demorecording in a server (lol epic).
This workaround uses the same old timers to additionally sleep the game thread, which is why launchers can't properly fix bad framerate behaviour on those AMD/cpu frequency changing computers.
So as long as you're not playing on Anthchecker servers, consider this the ultimate fix to timing issues.


===========================
Secondly DrFlay, new renderers barely bring any significant improvement/change other that modified visuals on textures (i can think of transparency on skyboxes...).
No matter how many renderers are released, the same render interface managing them all is being used and that tremendously limits a renderer's ability to improve beyond certain point.
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Re: tearing with VsyncOFF, lag with VsyncON?

Post by Dr.Flay » Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:09 am

In short: I am far more concerned with long-term compatibility, than having the fastest or shinyest game on the block.

Long version:
Actually the newer renderers make quite an improvement in speed, but it depends on your setup.
So far there are only limited comparisons of each of the renders on a variety of PCs, by the same person with the same tests.
Everyone's experience is different, because nobody has the same setup or uses the same quality, screen size, or tests each time.

Skywolf at OldUnreal did a fairly decent comparison 2 years ago with 4 different rigs with very different hardware.
http://www.oldunreal.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/ ... 1412865302

I recommend using the newest supported renders, simply because they are still "supported" and any flaws can be fixed in the build.
Flaws in the older renderers can only be bypassed externally.
I also recommend using the OldUnreal builds, because Smirftsch is the only person that (legally) has the whole UT99 v436 source code, instead of only headers and earlier source code from the OpenUT project.

As we move forward the hardware under the game is shifting, and to that end Smirftsch has started developing renderers for the newest versions of GL.
Currently they run slower as they have not had much testing or development, but the idea is to make sure that UT will always function and use native HW far into the future.
We are already at a point when Microsoft have reduced the included DX HW support and users need to install a bunch of missing files.
How long before GFX chip companies downgrade old GL to software emulation in the same way ?
Nobody want intel OpenGL performance in UT !

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Re: tearing with VsyncOFF, lag with VsyncON?

Post by Chamberly » Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:26 am

I'll leave a msg to the guy who manage that server... if I don't forget.

Edit: Sent PM via gametracker, not sure if he even can check that but I remember I referred him to check out and use XC_Engine but no answer back about it. Rasta man.
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mist
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Re: tearing with VsyncOFF, lag with VsyncON?

Post by mist » Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:07 pm

Higor wrote:XC_Engine
error at launch ut99 - absent XC_Core.dll
Higor wrote: MiniLauncher
crash at launch

Code: Select all

Имя сбойного приложения: MiniLauncher.exe, версия: 0.0.0.0, отметка времени: 0x58057092
Имя сбойного модуля: unknown, версия: 0.0.0.0, отметка времени 0x00000000
Код исключения: 0xc0000005
Смещение ошибки: 0x04f47118
Идентификатор сбойного процесса: 0xb8c
Время запуска сбойного приложения: 0x01d2297776bf271c
Путь сбойного приложения: G:\Games\UnrealTournament\System\MiniLauncher.exe
Путь сбойного модуля: unknown
Код отчета: b724aa4a-956a-11e6-8f61-00ac833614aa
anyway i don't want use them because server kick me
Dr.Flay wrote: Try a smaller screen size, not the maximum you can do.
Smaller sizes will offer faster speeds.
Your monitor is running at a slow 60Hz. You may be able to set that higher than your frame limit.
But i do not want reduce resolution
Dr.Flay wrote: Limit your FPS to something below 60, not over unless you can increase the speed of the monitor.
I am try
FrameRateLimit=30,55,58,59
not help
Dr.Flay wrote: Vertical Sync off
If you try to generate and display images faster than the monitor can get through in 1 second, you will see tearing as you move around, because it has to give up part way through drawing a frame, to catch up with where it really is now.
My monitor runs at 120Hz while I run a UT game at half that speed. I have no problem with tearing.

V.Sync on
The GFX card will wait for the monitor to finish before throwing new frames at it, so this also means the game will run slower than it could, but it will be smooth.

OpenGL has an extra triple buffering option to handle the difference in monitor and render speed, try that if you use OpenGL (If you have nVidia then you should be using OpenGL)
It will be an option in your windows driver config.

Often monitors are installed using Generic or PnP driver, which only contains the standard sizes and speeds.
See if there is an installer for your monitor. If so it will include an ini file and colour profile. The ini file will add any missing sizes or speeds to the Windows monitor adjustments.
Even with a crappy old LCD monitor I can run it at 75Hz
thank you for explanations!

i am install driver for my samsung 443NW but nothing is changes - still in windows 59hz, in monitor osd menu 60hz, in nvisia control panel 60hz

PS i play only on vanilla DM, TDM, there are very few, 1-3 maximum on whole inet

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