UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

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nogardilaref
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by nogardilaref »

TammT wrote:...
OK, you mean then to say that although you could format and summarize things better, you won't even bother.
But you want people listen to you nonetheless, by reading your posts carefully, and then on top of that you say this:
TammT wrote:Just more messy replies, more headache.
And yet you don't see any problem with your own posts and wonder why this isn't working out for you. Roger that.


That aside, server admins have no obligation whatsoever to cater to anyone's needs, that would be self-entitlement.
Be it netcode, anti-cheating measures, whatever, each admin will handle their own server in their own way.
Either you agree or not in the ways they do it, or if they favor groups of players, or even if they support cheating to some extent, or don't even care, either you create your own servers or just live with it.

If you truly really wish to fix anything, rather than actually push it towards someone to do it, take it into your hands to do it yourself.
Sure you can ask for help, but it's not going to work with your current attitude.

If you think X, Y and Z are poorly coded, then take the time to properly do it yourself, or create something new.
If you think someone is wrong in how something works, go read the code yourself and show it as proof.
If you think admins should install X, Y and Z, and they don't, then start creating servers yourself and manage them as you think it's the correct approach.


Ultimately, it's not the admins you should even focus on, it's the players.
They do not have to be aware of anything, they're "players" after all, they're in the game just to have fun and nothing else, and not to understand how something works, thus if you want players and the most fair play as possible, you have to work on it yourself.
If most players start rejecting your server because they cannot cheat anymore, either you live with it, or get new players who think like you do. This is hard of course, it's an old game after all, but there's just no other way unless you have godlike charisma to persuade everyone, which clearly isn't the case here.
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by sektor2111 »

I don't have any problems with his attitude - I'm not even disturbed when people are speaking louder what they think, I understand what is trying to say, but not all admins cares - that's the point.

@TammT:
I don't have hardware resources for testing this speed problem in my playground. I would like to see you contacting me on Skype, then I'll give you a host-name (an ut server runs there) with some modifications - not by using ACE or other things like that. It's all about hours GMT and all that - maybe we can be in a timing somehow for some monster kick ass.
If that server makes "troubles" at speed cheating - so to speak returns player back to normal, then we can debate/share methods and what is running there - simply showing to admins a "How To". If you still can cheat speed there, then probably my server is just another messed up crap and... it doesn't need any advertising/debates/sharing.
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by Higor »

BS
The server has authoritative control over your position, if properly patched (as mentioned before) then no matter how fast the client wants to run, it won't happen.
Stop being so dense.
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by TammT »

JackGriffin wrote:....
-Do nothing and they keep the group together and don't lose players
-Actively ban and their group ends up imploding
You can guess the route most take. It's also why I could never run a non-MH server. They know I'll name-and-shame because to me a secure and fair game is much more important than having a top spot on GameTracker.
It's really as simple as understanding that if you don't tolerate some level of cheating then you won't get a consistent player base. It's that bad.
*Important edit: This also includes us coders, mappers, and developers. I can't tell you the exploits I've found hidden in maps, mods, etc. Years back I decided I would never use any mod I either didn't make myself or that I couldn't see the clear source code. Oh, and if you play on a server using NewNet then you absolutely do it knowing that it's the most insecure and exploitable server mod there is. Any time you allow the client to make decisions that servers should be making then you allow a clear path to those wishing to impose influence. There's a reason the super competitive players LOVE NewNet servers and it ain't because it levels the playing field.
Well, congrats - there is someone here, even more pessimistic than I'm :mrgreen:
But I can just agree with you, practically in everything said.
So, beside inefficiency, not doing properly what should , there may be some hidden backdoors in mods ? Maybe some example - without names, of course.

--- merged ---
nogardilaref wrote:
TammT wrote:...
OK, you mean then to say that although you could format and summarize things better, you won't even bother.
But you want people listen to you nonetheless, by reading your posts carefully, and then on top of that you say this:
and so on .....
You twist it all. If you don't like what I write, how I write, then why so long post. There is really nothing in your long blah, what I did not answer already.
Nobody is forced to listen.
Do server admins must enforce fairplay, do they self must play fair ? Legally no. Do I have right to write about it, and express my opinion, not liking such people ? Indeed I have. If you don't agree with me in that, it's your right. And my right is to think that you are dishonest man, who cares not for essential things, but for some not really relevant ones.
So, this is only game, and therefore cheat, diverse advantages caused by connection quality, bad speed control, and like are total irrelevant ? All what player needs is to have fun.
Well, I inform you that it is utter BS what you said. It is not fun at all when some average player wins constantly all matches. It is not fun that some just jump in to spoil others match in purpose - and yes, many cheaters like it. It is not fun when someone takes other's nick - and yes, that's what cheaters do often.
Quality gaming is what is fun. And quality gaming means no cheat. So simple. If you don't care about that, just stay away from this thread. Start own about how nice it is all, and how you enjoyed all that cheaty games, and like. I'm sure, that that thread will be more popular than this one :mrgreen:
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by Carbon »

TammT wrote:And my infantile right is to think that you are dishonest man, who cares not for essential things, but for some not really relevant ones.
Fixed that for you.

How about discussing posts, not people. You don't know anyone you are talking to, so speak to their words, not their character. It's basic internet etiquette.
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by nogardilaref »

TammT wrote: You twist it all. If you don't like what I write, how I write, then why so long post. There is really nothing in your long blah, what I did not answer already.
Then you didn't really read it, did you?
I wasn't asking anything, I was asserting. From there either you rebuke, or you don't.
TammT wrote: Nobody is forced to listen.
Do server admins must enforce fairplay, do they self must play fair ? Legally no. Do I have right to write about it, and express my opinion, not liking such people ? Indeed I have. If you don't agree with me in that, it's your right. And my right is to think that you are dishonest man, who cares not for essential things, but for some not really relevant ones.
Nobody is forced to listen you say?
Then what about what you just said to me in the previous page about the "solution"?
TammT wrote: The solution: it was written about it too. Servers can have proper speed control, and some claim that solved it. The real problem is how to make all admins to install proper code on their servers. That may be too demanding for concrete server, for instance. Not easy at all. Harder from that is make people to understand, to care at all.
"Make people do X" is pretty much forcing them to listen, and your major complaint in all of this is exactly this point.
You're accusing me of the very trait you have been continuously displaying yourself starting from the very first page.
TammT wrote: So, this is only game, and therefore cheat, diverse advantages caused by connection quality, bad speed control, and like are total irrelevant ? All what player needs is to have fun.
Well, I inform you that it is utter BS what you said. It is not fun at all when some average player wins constantly all matches. It is not fun that some just jump in to spoil others match in purpose - and yes, many cheaters like it. It is not fun when someone takes other's nick - and yes, that's what cheaters do often.
Quality gaming is what is fun. And quality gaming means no cheat. So simple. If you don't care about that, just stay away from this thread. Start own about how nice it is all, and how you enjoyed all that cheaty games, and like. I'm sure, that that thread will be more popular than this one :mrgreen:
Ever since the very first game was created (and I don't even mean video-games, I mean even games with chalk on the floor and even sports), someone trying to get an "unfair" advantage was always something that existed, and is something which will always exist.

- Gamma, brightness and contrast increase
- Lower resolution
- Different settings for the world quality and skin quality to give players more contrast over the background
- Mouse and keyboard with macros
- Custom chained key bindings
- Usage of female character models since they are more slim than males
- FOV change
These are just a few of the things any player can do to have what you call an "unfair" advantage on any game, and I would say that most of the hardcore player base does exactly this.

- Better Internet connection
- Bigger curvy screens
- Air conditioning
- Gaming tailored hardware (keyboard, mouse, others)
- Faster computer
- Ergonomic environment
These are all things that can also make a huge difference by simply paying for them.

- Drinks
- Food
- Drugs
- State of mind
- Muscle memory
- Fatigue
- Time of day
These are all things which also affect the gameplay, where a person can be an average person in one moment, and utterly destroy everyone in the next.
I am normally an average player on any FPS game, but there are matches where I utterly destroy everyone if the conditions are just right. Someone like you would probably think I cheated, when the fact is that people aren't machines and can have variable performances.

If you want absolute fairness, you can get something close to that in something like a LAN party or an event where everyone has exactly the same conditions. This is what happens in e-sports.

Therefore, what I am trying to say here is that your idea of fairness is impossible. It only truly really sucks if someone is blatantly cheating in some sense, such with an aimbot, wallhack, even speedhacking.
If there are 2 players just pressing W to move forward, and one of them is 2x or 3x faster, then yes, you might have a problem and should look into fixing it or/and ban the player.
These cases are often obvious to everyone, and they do ruin the fun for everyone, and admins simply ban these most of the time.

However, if there isn't a huge outcry to fix these "problems", it's not because they don't exist, it's that they are generally not really a problem in practice most of the time and players are having fun, as they don't feel there's anyone with an advantage most of the time.

Even going back several years ago, when I played a LOT with Rocket-X and SLV, someone has shown to me in a match going at a really really high speed, something in the order of 5x faster at least.
In practice however, I would dogfight, tail other players, etc, and this is not something I even remember seeing being used.
In one of the very first posts someone mentioned differences of a few decimal places, although however it does not represent any difference in speed, it only shows the kind of errors which are expected in floating point arithmetic.

Regardless, the most effective way to raise any awareness about something is to act upon it.
If you don't start doing something yourself (like, actually doing something, like hosting your own server), to prove your point in which players will have more fun and to create a place you can enjoy by yourself, this won't really go anywhere.
You can complain all you want about these things, if you don't act yourself, it's all talk and it only shows that you want others to do whatever you think is right for them to do for you, when you don't even have a right to.

You're free to express your opinion, but that's not exactly what you're doing here.



Having that said, and this is probably what most of us are still waiting for, please show a video as proof of this being a really big of a problem like you're stating.
Upload it to youtube or something and post the link here.
Plus, make a quantitative evaluation of what you're seeing: how faster is "significant"?

Demos are unreliable by nature since they seem to follow the similar rules of online replication (if not the same), to the point that even an offline demo might not show accurately what really happened when it was recorded.
So don't record a video from the demo, show us an actual video recorded directly about such a thing happening in an online match.

Otherwise, well... just forget it, have it your way.
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by TammT »

Carbon wrote:
TammT wrote:And my infantile right is to think that you are dishonest man, who cares not for essential things, but for some not really relevant ones.
Fixed that for you.
How about discussing posts, not people. You don't know anyone you are talking to, so speak to their words, not their character. It's basic internet etiquette.
Your reply deserves only "f* off". After so much posts in this thread, where I was directly accused for some things, you come here with big wise words and forged quote. U R prick. And I wrote this so in purpose. There are things beyond Internet etiquette.

--- merged ---
nogardilaref wrote:...
Having that said, and this is probably what most of us are still waiting for, please show a video as proof of this being a really big of a problem like you're stating.
Upload it to youtube or something and post the link here.
Plus, make a quantitative evaluation of what you're seeing: how faster is "significant"?
Demos are unreliable by nature since they seem to follow the similar rules of online replication (if not the same), to the point that even an offline demo might not show accurately what really happened when it was recorded.
So don't record a video from the demo, show us an actual video recorded directly about such a thing happening in an online match.
Otherwise, well... just forget it, have it your way.
Well, that may work. Although I never went on recording full HD res with Fraps. Will see about it. I think that in linked demo it was very well visible. May not work for everyone. But I warn that running speed may be not so easy to judge - footwork speed and real movement speed just don't match.

Just short reply on your long blah about factors affecting gaming success, efficiency: I could add some more like family situation :mrgreen: .
And again, all it was mostly twisting. It's nothing new that faster player has big advantage, especially if all his actions go faster. I don't want here to go in concrete cheat ways - like mentioned aimbot, radar/wall hack etc. That's pretty large topic.
All experienced players know what fairplay means, yet you done long blah to prove that no absolute fairplay - like someone claimed that it exists.
Indeed, online gaming via Internet is area where conditions can not be same for all - especially in fast action games. Different lags were problem from very beginning - that was even in TV serial Halt and Catch Fire (on C64, if remember well) . But we can go close to it. 0 ping is one of attempts to make conditions more equal.
I really don't ask anything new, anything what I invented, or what would serve only my interest. Idea about fair conditions in game is something old as mankind. There are game rules, there are supervisors, judges, stewards, etc. What we have with UT99 is just a mess, again.
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sektor2111
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by sektor2111 »

nogardilaref wrote: - Usage of female character models since they are more slim than males
Excuse me, are we speaking about how do looks player or about collision ?
Because actually (as a random sample) TFemale2 has the same collision as TMale2 go check in Editor...
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by Barbie »

What is this thread about, by the way? :omfg:
"Multiple exclamation marks," he went on, shaking his head, "are a sure sign of a diseased mind." --Terry Pratchett
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by papercoffee »

sektor2111 wrote:
nogardilaref wrote: - Usage of female character models since they are more slim than males
Excuse me, are we speaking about how do looks player or about collision ?
Because actually (as a random sample) TFemale2 has the same collision as TMale2 go check in Editor...
He means visibility. Female characters tend to be with a smaller/thinner silhouette. And many "pro-gamer" tend to use those models not out of awesomeness but a slightly worse detectability.
Same goes for every slim framed player-model.
Barbie wrote:What is this thread about, by the way? :omfg:
To make it short:
-Some players (projectiles as well) can be faster or slower, in online matches, depending on different causes and OP is ranting about that there is no real compensation (server-side) and therefore is a fair play not possible.
He is not talking about cheats or hacks... just a vanilla install (I presume) plus a bad or good connection can make the speed difference.
-And all the others are talking about OP's attitude to be a little bit harsh with people who try to help him or try to explain him why certain things do what they do. I blame the language barrier.
That's it.
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by nogardilaref »

papercoffee wrote:
sektor2111 wrote:
nogardilaref wrote: - Usage of female character models since they are more slim than males
Excuse me, are we speaking about how do looks player or about collision ?
Because actually (as a random sample) TFemale2 has the same collision as TMale2 go check in Editor...
He means visibility. Female characters tend to be with a smaller/thinner silhouette. And many "pro-gamer" tend to use those models not out of awesomeness but a slightly worse detectability.
Same goes for every slim framed player-model.
^ Yep, exactly this.

I know they have exactly the same collision radius/height, but the hit cylinder is hidden from the player, so the player will try to hit only what they see, and not what might be there, making female models much harder to hit.
Even I get trouble hitting them, despite knowing this.
The boss model on the other hand is the easiest, given that it's so bulky.
papercoffee wrote:
Barbie wrote:What is this thread about, by the way? :omfg:
To make it short:
-Some players (projectiles as well) can be faster or slower, in online matches, depending on different causes and OP is ranting about that there is no real compensation (server-side) and therefore is a fair play not possible.
He is not talking about cheats or hacks... just a vanilla install (I presume) plus a bad or good connection can make the speed difference.
-And all the others are talking about OP's attitude to be a little bit harsh with people who try to help him or try to explain him why certain things do what they do. I blame the language barrier.
That's it.
Just to be clear, there are actually about 3 things which can be faster or slower based on the client:
- the player;
- guided projectiles, such as a guided redeemer (which have similar code), and even mods like SLV and Rocket-X (which are based on the guided redeemer);
- any mod which blindly relies on client input (Zeroping for example).

Which means, that every other case is unaffected by this. Even if you see your rocket launcher loading faster, that's just the animation speed in your side, the server will still load at its own speed.
This is the very reason why a vanilla minigun for example is affected by server tickrate and not the client's.

But if a mod purposely relies on client data (generally to "eliminate" lag), well... GG.
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by TammT »

papercoffee wrote:
sektor2111 wrote:
nogardilaref wrote: - Usage of female character models since they are more slim than males
Excuse me, are we speaking about how do looks player or about collision ?
Because actually (as a random sample) TFemale2 has the same collision as TMale2 go check in Editor...
He means visibility. Female characters tend to be with a smaller/thinner silhouette. And many "pro-gamer" tend to use those models not out of awesomeness but a slightly worse detectability.
Same goes for every slim framed player-model.
Barbie wrote:What is this thread about, by the way? :omfg:
To make it short:
-Some players (projectiles as well) can be faster or slower, in online matches, depending on different causes and OP is ranting about that there is no real compensation (server-side) and therefore is a fair play not possible.
He is not talking about cheats or hacks... just a vanilla install (I presume) plus a bad or good connection can make the speed difference.
-And all the others are talking about OP's attitude to be a little bit harsh with people who try to help him or try to explain him why certain things do what they do. I blame the language barrier.
That's it.
I heard explanation that is good to take female model because most of players is male, and they instinctively will tend less to harm female :) Still, that seems as more good idea than saying that female models are slimmer.
Considering being harsh: funny thing is that nobody complained on posts like this: "I think you are one of those people who will never listen to rational explanation and will instead just hand-wavingly dismiss everyone they don't agree with." - and here was many of similar. Then someone even forged quote (is there rule against that - because honestly, I never seen it before, on any forum, and that was bad even if was intended as some kind of joke), and best thing - he talked about netiquette :mrgreen:

And I will say again: we have here self claimed experts, who really don't help at all, contrary, they just increase mess.
Someone posted table with speed differences about 1% - really ? And how it can affect gameplay ? But I must be stupid idiot, because yes, it affects it ! Only 100% same speeds allow fairplay, therefore it is not possible. Not to mention other conditions in long - hmmm, am I allowed to use word rant ?
What I can conclude near to end of page 5 of this: first thing needed is: noticing the problem. And as I see it is really hard for many to even notice it. I guess some did not notice it simply because barely play this game in later time. Or just it is not present on servers where they play.
Second thing is: understanding game concept, what is real skill, and what is just pushing forward button, or just firing missile.
There is much more what admins should know. But we went here in really some "twilight zone", or I don't know how to call it - claiming that cheat is not bad and like. Well, if it is not bad, why cheaters deny it ? Why we have anti cheats on most of servers ? Why cheaters don't play on couple servers which clearly say that there cheat is allowed ?
That guy who wrote very long post recently forgot something simple: on most of servers cheat is clearly forbidden. So, cheaters do break rules. It reminds me on Sheldon Cooper from popular TW show (season 10 just ended) :mrgreen:

And here is the link to video (on request): http://www.mediafire.com/file/g3r31v1ei ... Johnny.mkv
Sorry, no YT. 13 MB, 30 secs long, and that's quite enough too see it well.
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by Carbon »

TammT wrote:Your reply deserves only "f* off". After so much posts in this thread, where I was directly accused for some things, you come here with big wise words and forged quote. U R prick. And I wrote this so in purpose. There are things beyond Internet etiquette.
Perfect. Thanks! :gj:
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by nogardilaref »

I just saw the video... now I get it... the problem here, and I am very sorry to say this, is that it seems simply to be that you're absolutely clueless.

It was already rather obvious the moment you thought Higor was breaching into your privacy with his signature image (which he's isn't btw, but I am not going into detail how that works right now), and from your assertions of normal weapons being faster or slower, ping affecting anything at all, and even when you said that the feet of the players didn't match their speed, along with arguing against actual "experts" in the matter with more years of development on this than you certainly have on playing the game.

But THIS, this is exactly what I was looking for to put the final nail on the coffin.
I am very sorry to inform you that what most likely you're playing against is a bot.
All the movements of the "player" you're focusing on matches the movements of a vanilla bot of about mid level of difficulty, and it's not even that fast.
Most of the existing UT servers use fake players. Only a few actually have real players, and the one you were at is known to use fakes.

Now you might say "they were real players because they even had ping, nicknames and everything"... well, a few weeks ago I found an instagib server which was so well done in faking players, that I only realized I was in fact playing against bots after around 2 minutes into the game.
Not only they had their own ping, different country flags and all, they would randomly stop and you see their animation as if communicating and would post things in the chat, which half of the time would make sense during the match.

But after 2 minutes it became very obvious they were bots due to the way they moved and the fact they had a pattern to them, something you don't see with real players.
It was glorious, I wasn't even mad, I even played more matches, although I consistently wiped the floor with them in every single one.

Furthermore, please realize that bots can be set up to have a different skillset, and this also ends up translating to speed I believe. That's why Loque is such a legend in virtue of being such an "aim-bot", due to how high his skills are set to.
Therefore one bot can stand out from the rest, this is why even in the single player campaign, Xan is more difficult than the rest, his skills are set to be much higher than the rest.

So unless someone else, one of the actual "experts" comes along (not you), sees your video and points out at some piece of evidence on how utterly wrong I am on this, I think you just proved that all of this talk was completely based on a false premise to start with, based simply in your own misconception of your own observation.
Hence why I wanted a video, and not a demo.

Either way, I am done here. :tu:
Have fun.
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by TammT »

LOL ! This was so far most ridiculous reply here (nogardilaref) :lol2:
Breaching into privacy was talking about IP in demo recording. That panel with IP is nothing new, I seen it 10 years ago, or more.
Yes, that Johnny is for sure bot, even if I know him over 2 years, and had lot of chat with him. Not to mention that there are maps where I beat him regularly - may guess that maps where speed matters not so much. Actually, I recognize very well players who regularly change their nicks - by playing style. By their text messages during game.
"Either way, I am done here." That's only useful thing you wrote - of course, only if really will be so.
So, page 6, and honestly: I did not expect some high level of discussion here. But this is really poor, low. Not that self claimed experts missing on other forums. But level of ridiculousness here is something unmatched for me :loool:
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