UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

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TammT
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UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by TammT »

To start with that I play this since official demo arrived, somewhere at end of year 1999. I remember there were maps like Morpheus and Phobos.
Played it a lot online with phone Internet connection, was even on some contest with about 50 players. Then around 2002-2005 we played a lot in LAN by diverse houses.
Later faster and better Internet connections spread, so we can now play it via some multi MB/sec connections. And man would expect that it will be nice experience, especially for old game, what should not have big demands for online gaming. However, my impressions in latest ~4 years were really not much good. What I noticed is that not all players move at same speed - some were significantly faster, even by simple running. And here starts really messy and sad story:
On my complains about it, I got diverse answers:
1 - most heard: you talk crap, it's your fantasy, you don't see it well, and like.
2 - I'm very skilled, I play this over decade and like
3 - I have very good connection, fast computer
Then I talked with many admins. They just ignored speed difference, saying that on their servers all players have same speed. Or: what is your speed setting :mrgreen: - admin who don't know that server is who determines speed for all players. Really can't remember any who admitted existence of problem.
All above made me thinking that all it is because cheat. And such cheats - for faster speed exist, and there are indeed cheaters using them.
But I experienced in latest month something very interesting. Will not name exact server - it uses Newnet 0.9, and when I was first time there, it was really much better than on most server. They did lot changes, experimenting there. But all time I complained about different speeds there. Some player were much faster, and even my speed could change, even in middle of one match.
Then it started kicking me off with message that my fire speed is too high. While I did not change anything. So, I tried with changing netspeed. And then came the real thing up: when I set it to LAN (was on 1 step lower, what means usually 10000-12000, while LAN is 20000) I got much faster running speed on most of maps. What the Hell ! I switched back to lower speed, and running speed went down too ! Back to 20000 and again extreme fast running. I wrote about it to admin, but he denied problem, saying that I don't see it well etc. I even sent him some demo recordings where it is clearly visible, and after that he did not reply.
Furthermore, not just my running speed is much better, but almost everything - like throwing teleports - much faster, so overall play advantage is huge.
And whole thing stays not only for that server, not only for NewNet. There is other server, where I go frequently, but there LAN netspeed is not good for me, then it pulses somehow, and my effective running speed is lower than with netspeed 10000. What is most intersesting, and I see it now very well: players there, who are very fast, almost all have netspeed 20000 (other fast ones are likely cheaters). And of course, they are close to server. So, whole concept, solution just sucks. There is zero ping to equalize somehow lags, but nothing what will enforce equal player speeds - what a nonsense !
Here to add, that we never seen speed differences among players in LAN parties. I even don't remember them from old online gaming (with slow connections).
So, what we have now on many, if not most of popular UT99 servers is unfair conditions for players. OK, in online gaming it can not be total fair, of course. But this is just pathetic,and worst is that ignorance of problem from admins.
Equal speed of players is of course possible. Server will give info to player about current speed for that match, and then on client computer it will go with that speed. Unless there is cheat. If speed is excided - and that can be checked, and is checked by some anti-cheats then can slow player, kick him or whatever. But this new ACE-s, Newnet and other stuff is made, it seems by incompetent people, and even not tested properly. Or admins just say that it is OK, while it sucks.

I can post here links to those demo recordings.
My goal is not to whine here, but I want to start some moving in right direction - making this old game enjoyable for all fair players, by ensuring fair conditions as much possible for online gaming.
As it is now, and not counting cheaters, there are some players, who are almost unbeatable just because their much higher speed - in almost everything - their redeemers fly faster, they even fall faster in Melfunnel XII,
schwap
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by schwap »

The issue causing this is actually the faulty CPUSpeed detection which is executed at launchtime only.

I'm not talking about the "common cpuspeed issue" with cool'n'quiet etc where you go like 3x faster than other guys..

I did try this on my server and found results like
Player1 Speed: 1.03758
Player2 Speed: 1.01823
Player3 Speed: 0.98888

And so on, as you see they all differ more or less... it IS POSSIBLE to fix this - I already did that ( im not playing ut99 though, another game )
TammT
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by TammT »

schwap wrote:The issue causing this is actually the faulty CPUSpeed detection which is executed at launchtime only.

I'm not talking about the "common cpuspeed issue" with cool'n'quiet etc where you go like 3x faster than other guys..

I did try this on my server and found results like
Player1 Speed: 1.03758
Player2 Speed: 1.01823
Player3 Speed: 0.98888

And so on, as you see they all differ more or less... it IS POSSIBLE to fix this - I already did that ( im not playing ut99 though, another game )
You did not read at all carefully what I wrote. + differences you listed are minor. There is much more. I talked about significant speed difference just depending on netspeed settings - and that's all after same, 1 launch of game. If you don't play UT, please don't spam here - yes, your reply is just that, because you even did not read what is real issue.

*****MERGED**** by Dr.Flay

Here are 2 demos to demonstrate it:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/pm8cw5j5j ... 2demos.rar
Both are done in 5 minutes, in 1 match, of course same server, same computer, internet connection, etc. I just changed network speed in settings.
Server just got update of Newnet. It is now v. 0.9.d4 . Nothing is changed considering this running speed nonsense.
Last edited by Dr.Flay on Fri May 26, 2017 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: merged posts
schwap
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by schwap »

Oh, excuse me that I was trying to help you...the issue is in the ENGINE so why is it spamming if I don't play the game?
Other games share the same engine and those are being modded aswell, therefore the modding communities of UE1 games can still share informations with each other.. you know?

I did read everything and I guess now I understand why the serveradmins didn't bother about it.

Good luck :agree1:
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by TammT »

It is not the engine. I said that LAN gaming was OK. The reason is for sure crappy new Net code done by poor coders and lack of testing.
You did not help, you did not read. If read, then your English knowledge is total poor. Watch demos and you will see. Otherwise, stay away - it is not nice to say, but you are now really boring.
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by Barbie »

TammT wrote:you are now really boring.
Then just ignore that - no reason to get abusive...
"Multiple exclamation marks," he went on, shaking his head, "are a sure sign of a diseased mind." --Terry Pratchett
TammT
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by TammT »

Barbie wrote:
TammT wrote:you are now really boring.
Then just ignore that - no reason to get abusive...
Excuse me, but what to say when I talk about large speed differences, and someone comes with examples of 1-4% differences, and claims that it is it. Without even looking demos, without reading really what is written. His posts are not help, he just thinks that is smarter than others. Ignoring leads nowhere. I could ignore whole issue too, and abandoning playing UT online, but instead it, I try to make things better. First problem is overall ignorance of some people. Typical for those who have benefit from this issue.

****MERGED**** by Dr.Flay

This getting more and more interesting:
I got this reply from one admin:
"As for the demo speed differences, i got your point. I m not an expert but as per my knowledge I will try to explain. UT99 is an old game and was not designed for multi core computers. Even If we run singleplayer on new systems by launching it from default UnrealTournament.exe it will run too fast. Thats why there are some fixes for multicore PC & all of us use it now (check if you are using one). But these fixes donot work with all netspeeds.
On the client end you are moving fast due to the problem (multicore etc), but on server you are moving slow. Due to this fast(on client) and slow(on server) there will be lag.
Run the game with suitable netspeed. Moving fast on client side is not an advantage. In fact it creates lag."
In order: UT99 is certainly not designed for multi core processors, computers. However, speed problems happen with single core CPU too. The actual problem is in design of game. Speed control is solved really badly. Instead using some of fix and accurate timers in PC, they tied gamespeed to vertical refresh and CPU speed. So, you turn off Vertical sync in video driver, and it becomes too fast in offline play, even on 1 GHz single core. Now, there is so called multi core fix, what makes it reasonable speed offline, but that's absolutely not solution of problem. Who is such idiot to run UT via it, and be slower online ? And it's not true that it makes lag - contrary, lag is lower too, so there is overall huge advantage in playing. I was able to be godlike many times on server, where were 3-4 not that bad real players. They could not kill me just because I was very fast, and even with very low health was able to run away, so survive.
"On the client end you are moving fast due to the problem (multicore etc), but on server you are moving slow. " i needed to quote it again - because it is such nonsense :mrgreen: What the Hell is he talking ? How can speed of player be different at client and at server ? Would I notice faster players if they move not faster on server ?
Running game with suitable netspeed - of course - I will choose such netspeed what makes me play best possible. And so do others.
So, I see lack of logic by admin here. Really don't want to be offensive, but his explanation talks for self. Ah, and he was who asked me about my speed settings :)
Problem can be solved only if there is really good speed control, what assures same movement speeds for all players + their same fast teleport, redeemers, etc. If it needs new UT99 launcher, some new DLLs, I think someone can put it together, with CPU and video independent speed control. Servers supporting it should allow only players with that UT version.
What is currently on most popular UT99 servers online is bad joke, not normal online play.
Last edited by Dr.Flay on Fri May 26, 2017 9:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: merged posts
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Dr.Flay
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by Dr.Flay »

Quit the superior BS attitude.

TammT, you come here with what ?
Questions not answers, so your knowledge is not so L337.

You raise the complaint that people are not reading the posts.
I put it to you that you also have not read a post here that you should have.
House Rules https://www.ut99.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=149
You are in violation of 2 site rules

First the thing that narks me most, breach of privacy.
If you get "private" messages within this site, they are to remain "private" unless you have the permission of the person you are quoting.
*See Rule 13*

Then there is the "spam" posting of multiple posts, which seem to contain complaints of spam posting.
*See Rule 8*

We allow users the luxury of editing previous posts at any time, so if you need to continue a thread within a 24 hour period of no other posts, you should click on the edit button and add a new section to the last post.
Allowances are made for project releases and tutorials etc.

For people to actually help with this, certain important info is needed which you have not given.
Demos are all very well, but do not show the contents of your INI files and log output.
Watching the symptoms can be useful yes, but unless people know what is wrong with your config/setup it is just guesswork.
You have not said which renderers you use, or if you have even updated them, or if you have v436 or 451.

If this is such a big problem, why are the rest of us not seeing the same in our copy of UT99 ? :noidea
TammT
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by TammT »

Dr.Flay wrote:Quit the superior BS attitude.
TammT, you come here with what ?
Questions not answers, so your knowledge is not so L337.
There are things which I know well, there are things which I know not well, or not at all. I given some answers, and I given some questions too - that's why forums are .
Dr.Flay wrote: You raise the complaint that people are not reading the posts.
I put it to you that you also have not read a post here that you should have.
House Rules https://www.ut99.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=149
You are in violation of 2 site rules
It was for 1 member, so not "people". And I say again: he was spamming here. I explained it - what his list of speed differences of max 4% has at all with this issue ? No one can notice 4% faster player. Now, if you want to ban me because I said that he is boring after second useless post, do it, do it because I argue with you now.
Dr.Flay wrote: First the thing that narks me most, breach of privacy.
If you get "private" messages within this site, they are to remain "private" unless you have the permission of the person you are quoting.
*See Rule 13*
It was quoting from e-mail. I did not name anyone. And that reply says a lot - I could say it is pretty much typical. Shows lack of common sense, Ah, I'm again in superior BS :mrgreen: Well, ban me . But you need to apologize to me because of false accusing of violating forum rules.
Dr.Flay wrote: Then there is the "spam" posting of multiple posts, which seem to contain complaints of spam posting.
*See Rule 8*
Dear God. You really went on me with all weapons ... What a waste of time - you do exactly the same now - spamming and hanging on something where can attack me. You should instead it delete his 2 useless posts - although he should do it self, if realized how misfired.
Dr.Flay wrote: We allow users the luxury of editing previous posts at any time, so if you need to continue a thread within a 24 hour period of no other posts, you should click on the edit button and add a new section to the last post.
Allowances are made for project releases and tutorials etc.
I'm sorry for that. This is something what I never seen on any other forum.
Dr.Flay wrote: For people to actually help with this, certain important info is needed which you have not given.
Demos are all very well, but do not show the contents of your INI files and log output.
Watching the symptoms can be useful yes, but unless people know what is wrong with your config/setup it is just guesswork.
You have not said which renderers you use, or if you have even updated them, or if you have v436 or 451.
If this is such a big problem, why are the rest of us not seeing the same in our copy of UT99 ? :noidea
I don't think that any of it is relevant, considering given explanation. It is done in same match, and changing only Network speed in UT settings. The fact is that players running speed should not change at all depending from network speed. Certainly not being some 50% faster with 20000 in compare to 12000. And you come with: " what is wrong with your config/setup " . Well, nothing is wrong with it. Speed issues are present with many players, regardless from did you notice it or not, I see it every day - some are ridiculously fast, and almost impossible to even hit them. And they not getting banned. And I'm sure that many of them actually did not cheat. Just whole UT99 online system is failing today, with very fast computers and connections.
I will not give here any ini files, that's total pointless. You may start endless blah about what is wrong there - but all it is set according to online guides and my experiences. There is nothing hacked there - and if it would, servers would notice it and kick me, isn't ?
And we have actually very absurd situation here: you accuse me for my settings causing problem. Let's say it is true - so I can be much faster than other players. And then I should change my settings. Well - this is what happens not. As said already - which idiot would do it ? If it happens to me, it happens to many others - and that's exactly what I see every day. So, it is not on me to resolve this problem with my settings, but it is on server to detect much faster players and to slow them, kick them. And that's not theory - there are servers which check pretty well player's speed. Maybe not popular solution because may cost lot of server's CPU time. Or because other reasons.
All in all, this thread shows so far already, how low things are in online UT99 World - those who are in some positions and could do something just attack people who want things go better with absurd ideas, lack of common sense. Dr. Flay: I will say it again: it is not about me. I'm just one of many. Most is silent, usually unable to see things well. They think that very fast players are skilled ones. But no skill required to run fast - you just press forward button. Sad to see how most does not know even elementary UT99 things. And you don't see: as I said above, who is who needs to take measures against too fast player speeds. What my ini files have with fact that servers can not solve different speed problem ? Should I ask too fast players that change their ini files ?

UT v. is 4.51, use Open GL just because it has less mouse lag, but all is same with Direct 3D. I have feeling that this was waste of time in this forum. Because lack of elementary respect toward member, who explained things pretty detailed. But all I see is treating me like some stupid newbie. Time will show who is right.
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by sektor2111 »

Man, do not be sad. Let me point my notes around ON-Line.
I could see at a moment in a MH server a player running really fast with effects like he had relic of speed - I don't know what he did - map was a common one with no secrets. Else, some admin kicked him out but... he went back due to Nexgen bullshit codes for kick system, the best kick is done by any MapVoteLA type in original. What kind of moron and idiot is that guy feeling superior and entering again after he was kicked ? Do you think these people will use "player fixes" in order to play ON-Line. This speed fix I think should go to SERVER because you cannot convince player to change their files - more that that they always look for uncaught cheats even buying stuff for cheating - not to mention spamming.
In other server everything was running smoother except... 1 Player which was really warping (Who the heck could aim that dirt-bag ? ) - I don't need to say which server was (a populated one and popular one :omfg: )
In other Deck16 whatever super-duper rocket one I could see again some players which I think could not be reached by a seeking rocket. Pretty much I quit playing On Line if this is new "style" of playing UT.
Last time (3 years ago if I well recall) I did some test server with monsters and stuff in order to check new masters. Of course I could see some geniuses speaking about lags (I did tests from a wireless connection from other provider with no issues). Else probably that ass with a dumb ISP or whatever stuff running was just pissing me off with his so called 2 seconds lag. Other intelligence coming from Poland started some speech which I did not bother that much to translate - frustrated probably by my creatures there, working on teams around, and heck knows what or who called him there and what was the purpose of bullshitting.
Another time in MH session which I started for testing new Bot controller, another genius entered to say:"I Hate Bots".
My Mental answer:
Really ? Go fuck yourself.
Imagine that I was working entire week to clarify those problems doing codes and tests, working intensive until 2:00 AM, and suddenly a retarded one has come to tell me about his hates - server being visible when uses bots - So who the heck was calling him there ?
I took a decision - I'm not gonna do permanent servers and neither visible from now one because I got tired of such people: bright "geniuses" telling about using some mods, relevance craps to mock Levels, complaints about my lifts, all in one good stuff for me was nasty for them because THEY CANNOT PLAY UT normally, they need advantages, mods, less A.I. (but they play MH using A.I. as a goal - yeah, fags, Monster = A.I. aka Artificial Intelligence).
Then, new hardware offering sudden speeds was coming like a bless for these type of players which will never tweak anything for playing like normal players. I did patches as much as I could (probably I'll share in private some UScripted engine side for XCGE haters) toward speed problems... mods used are aligning players to the same speed, etc. but I prefer to stay stealth.

Just my view - I might be wrong.
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by TammT »

sektor2111 wrote:Man, do not be sad ...
...
Just my view - I might be wrong.
What makes me really sad is not fact that there is lot of cheaters and unfair players, but that on servers, where I can play well (not too slow, not too laggy), and there is not much of them where are some players too - so on that few server there is not much done to make play experience pleasant for fair player. Could say more, but will stop at this point.
Considering players with extreme high ping - and I seen some with ping of 1500 on one Rocket Arena server: that's pure cheat, I''m sure. Ping is indeed fake. I can not do anything with ping of 300. They just abuse zero ping - what works by adding delay to players with lower ping when encounter player with high ping. The result is that you froze for some time, and he kills you like joke.
Funny thing was that admin banned me for 1 week when I complained about it :mrgreen: And even more funny was that that player came to me that I need to play faster on that server because triple jump and other mods. Sure, he can play fast with ping of 1500 :mrgreen:

We all might be wrong ... in some things. I don't think that you are wrong at all. Actually, it was one of best posts I seen related to UT99 online problems.
Maybe main problem here is that Epicgames just abandoned all support and even care about old UT99. So all is on basically volunteers. Some central control is inevitable to make order on all public servers. And that will not happen, most likely. So, there will be always servers good for unfair players, and unfortunately there will go naive people don't seeing all crap happening.
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by OwYeaW »

interesting stuff TammT

i guess youve had some bad luck with entering the wrong servers
can you post the ip addresses from one or more of these servers that you talk about?
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by Higor »

TL;DR
Can I get a quick rundown?
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sektor2111
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by sektor2111 »

Oh well, I have installed that new demo manager shared by the other Sektor and it looks good/stable. I see that is able to show if some file is missing rather that crashing when it attempts to run a demo with no files. Those shared demos did not include files so I couldn't get them operational. Good to know anyway. When I'll have some time I'll record some "visits" because it might be relevant for more or less clarifications.

Given this thread and the rest, I could figure is small parts how do works Net replication toward Player location by looking at a demo which I've recorded - Interesting...

Edit: Correction
It do works post connection (when memory has files loaded) but later... LOL.
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Re: UT99 online gaming latest years - bad impressions

Post by TammT »

Higor wrote:TL;DR
Can I get a quick rundown?
Can you be constructive here, instead doing privacy breach ?
I mean, I don't have anything to hide, my IP is logged with every post. I know that my every e-mail is checked very well after 2015 Paris terrorist attacks, and so on.

And I forgot to say on what map was it recorded - it is Metal Dream - I should do it on some regular map. Anyway, instead peeking demo files maybe to use SW for installing maps from cache to UT Maps dir, so will have all them permanently - especially welcome for case of longer dead Internet period, what will come very soon :lol2:

Edit add on:
"i guess youve had some bad luck with entering the wrong servers
can you post the ip addresses from one or more of these servers that you talk about? "
It is not bad luck with random choosing of servers - I talked already about low count of servers where I can play well - not much lag. Here to add that whole ping checking and displaying is very messy and reflects often not at all real lag. I had indicated pretty good ping on some servers - about 50-70, while lag was at least 200mS, and could not do anything, not even against relative weak bots.
It may be that my provider just cheats with ping - something similar to VW Diesel affair - they use faster path for ping, and slower for real data transfers.
OK,here is one example: popular server in Germany, or it is maybe located in NL, deathmach [UT] FUNNEL-ACTION unrealteam.de - you can find it quickly. Now, there is no admin, at least no some active one. Given e-mail is dead. Anti-cheat is very old. There are huge speed differences among players, often. Belowed place of some notorious cheaters , but I don't know am I allowed to give nicks here. Just will describe one, who cheats there right now: leads 27:9 on funnel map - and he always votes for funnel maps, because his cheats work best on such, On classic UT maps he is pretty average. Moves very fast, better said way too fast. Then, there is for sure some kind of aimbot, radar. He can lock on you behind wall. On some maps he always sees you when start to go to center, thru walls and kill you easily - so certainly has some indication of all player positions. And on top of it, there is most likely fake ping of some 220mS. Other players from his country have pings in range 80-90 mS . If you want to see lot of cheat go there today - Sunday is their beloved day for killing (all fun).
Last edited by TammT on Sun May 28, 2017 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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