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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby nogardilaref » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:00 pm

I had a reply for BT (BT actually proves my point), but I then remembered a far more important detail about what you're proposing, and is the fact that this is an actual slap in the face to every modder in existence.
Because this proposition of yours is actually going to break a lot more than it will "fix", and it will break things badly.

I only realized this now, and probably you didn't realize this yet either, but a really bad consequence of doing it that way is that the admin or player will perceive something like a weapon mod not to be working, when it's the fault of what you would have built here instead.
The modder who built whichever mod will be the one first held accountable and perceived of having built a non-working mod, when in fact it's the fault of this new MH.

Most of what you want is already achievable through running just MH alone without any additions, you just need to set up a server with just what you consider to be good maps and there you go.
If this isn't enough (because honestly it sounds boring, and this is coming from a rather addicted Rainbow Six player myself, as there we only have 1 life as well and it's nerve-wrecking, and it's just 5vs5), you really need to spice it up with interesting things and properly balance things out, not necessarily by regenerating ammo or health or anything, but other sorts of small rewards and features (some monsters having a very small chance of dropping loot for example, such as health and ammo, which the player would need to pick up and it would be first come first served, not a full team reward).

Who knows, perhaps doing it Fallout style and be able increase your health by eating the meat of what you killed, at the cost of something else depending the kind of meat you ate, like doing less damage or receiving more damage.
The sky is the limit here, and wouldn't detract much from the intended gameplay, and it would be a lot more fun and having the campaigns to be a lot more thoughtful.

After all, and I think I am perhaps right on the money on this one, but don't you actually intend something like a DayZ kind of gameplay in MH? Something more close to survival, with the atmosphere and lore of Unreal?


Either way, the whole thing can be summarized by the following: you're trying to go down the authoritative road, rather than trying to attract people with a sample of superior and more fun gameplay instead, and that's the whole problem of what you're proposing here.
In other words, the gameplay itself is not the issue at all, it's how you're proposing to do it.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby JackGriffin » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:38 pm

the fact that this is an actual slap in the face to every modder in existence.

Whoa, for sure relax. I'm just having a discussion. The last thing I want to do is offend by just asking some questions.

:Looks around to see if I'm in BeyondUnreal by mistake:
...Nope, right spot. I'll just relax and hope that's just another joke I didn't get.
:deep breath:

Although I'm not sure where the tone of your post comes from I don't necessarily disagree. I think it's important that I defend a bit of myself though here and say that I've always supported 100% external modding. I know my mod work isn't incredible but what I have done is always given freely. I've never clamped derivative work extended from my own (aside from anticheat) nor prevented other mod work. You're kind of making me out to be a bit of a tyrant for only asking some questions. If I didn't care what other people thought I'd just have done this without asking. I'm not looking to foment anger, it's an honest set of questions that are legit concerns. I don't see why it's offensive to just ask for discussion surrounding them.

Either way, the whole thing can be summarized by the following: you're trying to go down the authoritative road, rather than trying to attract people with a sample of superior and more fun gameplay instead, and that's the whole problem of what you're proposing here.
In other words, the gameplay itself is not the issue at all, it's how you're proposing to do it.

I don't think you and I are seeing eye to eye at all. It's like we see the same thing but are viewing it using entirely different criteria. Let me try a different approach. Load up a coop map from Unreal and play it the way the mapper intended. It's tough but doable. Well balanced and thought out. You must use skill and technique to bypass the obstacles you face.

Now add a weapon mod. Or double jump. Or translocator. Really, just add anything that offers an advantage and you fundamentally change the map experience. What *was* tough is now easy (and quickly also boring). Now to make it fun you have to edit the map to make it tougher. Some years later here we are: the logical progression.

My question remains: can this be fixed or an alternative offered that will not suffer this fate? Not everything *has* to be moddable. Look at the logic of your first quote now. If I have to start lining up people to "literally slap" then you have to apply this same standard to all the mappers who get their maps broken by modders. Should they also be incensed? Many obviously wanted it played a certain way because they stripped their maps to stop extension.

I'm not at all looking for DayZ in UT, though that does sound appealing. Coop play in Unreal starts you over at the beginning of the map if you die. MHB should do the same. If a map is too tough or too long to risk not finishing or it's just too frustrating then that's the fault of the mapper. I'm not proposing anything other than the way it was meant to be. People have just gotten SO used to all the extras they have forgotten what the start was.

Seriously, go load up coop in Unreal. Play a few standard maps with no mods. I'll bet you go "oh yeah, I remember now" to yourself.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby [rev]rato.skt » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:31 pm

Plz add one rank on some configurable key, with lots of info, pictures of dead monsters and others stuff ... :P
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby Terraniux » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:34 pm

After some reading, I gave this idea second thought.
This thing might actually be very cool, it needs to publicly announced everywhere.

This mod could increase your aiming, movement and monster awareness. For I is reading it this way now.
When I join people on dU servers I just play like I see fit, I ain't a good MH player. Just average I guess. When the map ends I am always surprised how people get such high scores.

If you need mapper for your idea Jack, let me know. I can provide you a basic / advanced map for you to work your map out in.
This is also in reply on the organic topic : viewtopic.php?p=103170#p103170
But this mod should be very map specific in certain ways. A gap in the market it is.

Since some people don't appreciate maps and are just annoying people in server, this maybe actually rewarding value to maps that normally noted for their beauty.
It's a flipped coin. IF you have server that lets you choose from normal MH and MH-? ( yours ) people have the choice to have some thing manly, challenging and cool. or just hang around and to have fun how they see fit.

My opinion totally changed. Go for it Jack. :thuup:
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby nogardilaref » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:25 pm

No, no, no. I didn't mean to be aggressive at all, although by re-reading my own post I can see that perhaps it was a poor choice of words.
Sorry if it came across that way. :oops:

What I meant to say is perhaps better explained with an example: let's say I am an MH mapper, and I don't understand much about coding or anything else for that matter, my ability is only about doing cool MH maps, and I just found this cool weapon that I want to add, and I add it to my map, since I mean it to be played that way, or I mean for players to find it as a reward or a key.
Now then you come along with this MH, and remove it.

Now, every normal weapon works with it, only the new cool shiny weapon does not. What is the very first thought that will cross my mind?
"This weapon doesn't seem to work :( , I will try to find another one"
from here, of course no other weapon will work, at which point I might start to think it's MH itself which is removing it, and from there I will be sad as a mapper because I cannot add custom weapons, or even worse than that, perhaps I am doing something wrong but I don't care anymore, nor will I ever care again because there's now a stigma that custom stuff doesn't work, regardless of why it doesn't work.

This mean that by extent, I might not trust things like custom triggers and the like, and use only the standard stuff.
And this is what I meant by a "slap in the face", because now the modders who did such custom things, might have had their work rendered useless, because your mod would forcefully make them to not work or appear at all.
Hence, what you're proposing here is the very equivalent to what game studios do nowadays with their games: it's their rules only, no modding allowed.

Hopefully it's now clear what I meant.


As for the addition of mods, it's true that any mod at all which is added, changes the experience. And you mentioned BT, but BT itself doesn't really force anything afaik, that's why you can use things like ZP and even NewNet iirc.
Furthermore, BT could easily have had similar boosts as in MH, with higher jumps and double jumps, high speed dodges, low gravity, translocators... etc. As a matter of fact, there was a time where there were some normal weapons BT servers around (not sure if there's still any).

So why then did BT last until nowadays pretty much unchanged? Because the gameplay is that good, and is good enough so the "addition" of more mods ("addition" being the most important keyword here) is not needed at all.
The map is the star of the show in this gametype, so there's a lot of focus in having quality maps to begin with.
There's no other gametype in UT as a whole which has such a high number of high-quality maps such as BT, just visit any server at all and vote any map at random, odds are you will end in a quite fantastic and appealing map, and personally for me, a good deal of the charm of BT is to discover the map you're trying to pass and be able to absorb all the nice little details it has.


I remember the old days when MH was just normal weapons with a limited number of lives, and I also remember tons of people leaving the servers when they died and had no lives left, and would have to spend up to an hour or more to be able to play again.
From there lives became unlimited, and MH started to boom again, until the evolution was on the weapons side. Although in the weapons side, it started with maps having these weapons to begin with, and then it ended up being the kind of mods you see today.

So you don't want a DayZ kind of gameplay, I guess I was wrong about that, and then what you want is something as close to Unreal coop as possible, but in UT99 using only UT99 original weapons. Is this it, or am I misunderstanding it again?
Either way, then I ask you: what would be the difference from your point of view between removing the custom stuff with your mod, and just not using that custom stuff to begin with?
This is the point I think we keep butting heads over, and I still didn't understand what is the deal with actively removing something, which you simply do not have to add at all to start with.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby JackGriffin » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:34 pm

I see what you mean. So let's take another tack on the discussion. Is there a way to reign in MH or is it too far gone? Is it possible to create a framework for mappers to use that can stay consistent? That's probably more in line with what I'm asking and what I'd like to do.

I just don't see a way to accomplish this without declaring some sort of sandbox that will need to be played inside of.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby sektor2111 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:46 pm

BT chapter heh - we have two things here.
1 - Player is getting weapons if he has a bit skill so has to work for getting stuff making game a bit interesting... somehow;
2 - New player with less skill in jumping was leaving in max 2 minutes - as admin I'm not sure if you want players left - this is a point which makes me to turn evil mode on - a Game with no players is going down quickly. Not a single time I witnessed from 3 people loaded remaining None even in a simpler MH-BT map as MH-AkemiChan - some players are really hating these Levels with more jumping than hunting, they ruin original MH concept.

All right, what can we do about some good maps (story, configuration, etc) but making a mess with very heavy BT things ? Answer is simple, attack Level if is matching such a nasty known name and... spawn stairs, platforms and slow down this BT spree if you need players else old player will play until is leaving, and you will not have other replacement that easy - final result is turning off server with manure loaded. I'm not interested in offending this type of creativity but my conclusion about it is a No Go toward growing community. If player wants BT games, there are dedicated servers for that, we don't to mess up with a sort of "OFF-TOPIC MH", because this is probably the right term - OFF TOPIC MH.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby Higor » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:02 am

JackGriffin wrote:Is there a way to reign in MH or is it too far gone?

Monster Defense

I was planning a map where you had to take back control of a spaceship... while aiding a group of friendly Skaarj/Queen.
Dunno if Ill ever make it lol.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby EvilGrins » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:44 am

Higor wrote:I was planning a map where you had to take back control of a spaceship... while aiding a group of friendly Skaarj/Queen.

Certainly possible.

I've got, somewhere, one map where you bust through a base and get to spaceship near the end. Throughout the map, a Mercenary shows up and asks your help and tells you where to go next. At the end you've gotta fight off the Skaarj and make sure no Mercs die... if any do die, you lose.

It's MH or MA, I'd have to find it to know for sure.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby nogardilaref » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:07 am

JackGriffin wrote:I see what you mean. So let's take another tack on the discussion. Is there a way to reign in MH or is it too far gone? Is it possible to create a framework for mappers to use that can stay consistent? That's probably more in line with what I'm asking and what I'd like to do.

I just don't see a way to accomplish this without declaring some sort of sandbox that will need to be played inside of.

Is there a way? Yes, I am absolutely convinced that there is, and even I have some plans which involve MH to some extent (in de-scaling it back down at least a bit).

I think the problem here resides in having 2 extremes here: in one hand you have this absolutely absurd scale of nukes and monsters with millions of health and whatnot, and on the other side you have this absolutely bland, brief and hard for the sake of being hard experience that the default MH provides, without much to do or to kill.
And the way I personally see it, is for there to be a way to have an MH which joins the best of both sides.

First off, I think the way to figure out exactly what is needed, is to assemble the best MH maps you can think off, play them, and ask yourself what kind of problems did you find in them.
Was the map too brief or too long? Was there a lack or excess of monsters? Does the map tell some kind of story? How can they be improved if you actually got around to edit them?

In other words, maps like Godz and any consisting of BT trials on one side and room after room filled with monsters on the other, are excluded from the get-go.
Here I think we need to think a bit more along the lines of BT mapping, but not in the BT part itself with the trials, but rather on the atmosphere and beauty the map gives off.
One of the things I remember from back in the day, is that the maps looked and felt quite mysterious and grandiose at the same time, with a lot of atmosphere in them.

So, perhaps the first keyword here is "immersion", with the second being perhaps "satisfaction".
Higor just gave a great example above with a rather unique map he's thinking in doing, and these are the kinds of maps and experiences to look for.

And how does this translate into a "framework" the mapper may use?
This actually requires some heavier discussion, especially around the interfaces the mapper will use, but the basic gist of it would be to provide the necessary tools to:
1 - Tell a "story" (more like establish the lore, the setting, that sort of thing at minimum);
2 - Have better and easier control over the "waves" of monsters;
3 - Properly define and hint the players on the objectives if the players get stuck, as well as checkpoints (like with Assault in UT2004);
4 - Reward the individual players in some way upon a specific event (monster dropping loot for example, maybe a whole new scoring system with points given by kills, kills with skill and completed objectives);
5 - Make it easy to add some randomness, so the experience does not get stale over time (like having 3 places monsters come from, but then only coming from 1 or 2 of them);
6 - Implement some "puzzles" easily as well, which may turn in a safe passage or more monsters for example.

And all of this using new mapping actors, with a new MH engine behind all of this, yet to be defined and developed.

From there, things like weapon mods could still be added, but would just be advised against for the time being.
Some of them are actually adjustable to be pretty much equivalent to normal weapons after all, so those would be quite OK.
In other words: you don't want custom overkill weapons? Do not add them to your server, simple.

And if you want to keep the map essence the mapper originally intended to, then at least you or someone else must host a server available for players to try it out by themselves as is.
If players like what they see and what they are playing, they will simply stay playing on that server, just like what happened with BT. :)
A focus on quality over quantity essentially, but without forcing the other mods out.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby papercoffee » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:43 am

What would be needed is a proper restore point system for much to long maps. If you die and have to start over from the first floor ...is it really frustrating, to get to the place where the action is, through an empty map ...just to see that your team has already killed all the monster or they didn't and got wiped out and you die again...
I played on a server once (can't remember which one it was) where all player had a special transloc which had all team member as destination point. When you died could you collect the weapons at the start and teleport to the member on the battlefront to support them. And when all members died weren't you alone on the long way to the fighting place.
I can imagine some kind of overview map where you could select a team member and teleport in that region.

That loot drop Nog mentioned is also a very good idea. Imagine special monsters in a hidden place which will drop special item afterwards. Killing all monsters would become more important.

sektor2111 wrote:BT chapter heh

Nog didn't mean that pesky parkour sections in this dumb maps where the player has to solve it to get weapons. He meant the aesthetic of the real BT maps with the exploration and stuff.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby Barbie » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:54 am

EvilGrins wrote:I've got, somewhere, one map where you bust through a base and get to spaceship near the end. Throughout the map, a Mercenary shows up and asks your help and tells you where to go next. At the end you've gotta fight off the Skaarj and make sure no Mercs die... if any do die, you lose.

It's MH or MA, I'd have to find it to know for sure.
It is probably MH-LostSouls.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby sektor2111 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:17 am

And here we go again speaking about Cannons aka Monsters and crap with meshes changed doing spam and nothing runs stable at using this stuff addressing kamikaze/auto-trap MH servers. No offense, but NsMonster with a bit of tweaks post game start (propertychanger as sample) are able to be real friends and... are ScriptedPawns usable without spreading Accessed Nones. MyLevel is also a friend for doing stuff accordingly in case of flaws encountered, regarding to MH's "fantastic" attitude tweaks. NsMonster ignores directive "AttitudeToPlayer" checking their Team Byte VS PlayerReplicationInfo.Team and reacts accordingly. So I'm wiping my ass with Cannons turned in monsters with Codes "written" using Copy-Paste from ScriptedPawn and no fixes making admin's life harder than supposed. Actors simulating players taunting are also easily doable without mooing with stock screwed up. Gimme a break with that, we were talking about reinforcement of MonsterHunt and not off-topic how to damage servers.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby JackGriffin » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:37 pm

I don't know dude. The more I consider this the less I think it will actually work. You have outlined the best course of action but actually implementing it is where I think it fails. Whatever you try to make MH into it will need some backward compatibility or I think it's doomed (get it, Doomed? I'll let myself out).

MH does need custom actors to be it's best but that path means it won't gain acceptance. Look at the general MH maps that have surfaced in the last few years. There are really good ones like Terra does but the majority of them are simply other maps converted from coop-ish play with hundreds of monsters and a monsterend. "Mappers" like this don't want to learn new actors or anything. They just want to place monsters, add an end and call it MH-Craps (that's for you Nels :highfive: ).

It was my thinking that if you made a framework where they could do that with any map it might take off. They still do the same thing, add monsters and pickups and a monsterend, but if they follow a simple formula it would be challenging. Mapsizes would remain very small, version mismatches would be kept to minimum, etc. It's not the perfect solution but I think it accounts for the way things currently are.

Then again Survival worked right but it was *BORING* so there's that lesson I didn't appear to learn. Perhaps it's me repeating a past mistake.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby Terraniux » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:00 pm

Don't worry Jack and others! I am fullY going with my MH tutorial . There is light on the horizon!
Managed to type 2 pages this afternoon and will soon add editor stuff!

Just make simple version of it Jack, then we see it scored the goal. :thuup:

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