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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby nogardilaref » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:20 pm

Allow me to alleviate your concerns by being the first one to say: fuck retro-compatibility. :mrgreen:
This is a completely new monster (pun intended), and would certainly require maps to be edited into new ones and tested.

Like I mentioned, quality over quantity, and converting a few of the existing good maps wouldn't be very hard, it would be just harder to get permission for each one, unless their ReadMe already allows for such to happen.
And do not forget that newer games only have about half a dozen maps at most, but good maps with a lot of work put into them, and in UT99, despite the best efforts for admins to have hundreds of maps, in practice only about a dozen actually gets played, and are always the same ones and even variations of the same one.

Furthermore, you cannot expect mappers to join in immediately, something must be created first and it must work well, without issues, and it must be really fun and be very immersive, in other words, we need to set the example first.
However, this is indeed still quite an undertaking, and it's not trivial and it's not something to be expected to be finished by the end of a single week.


As for Survival, I only remember a bit about it, and I remember it made an attempt to have levels and experience and that kind of stuff... but yeah, it didn't pull me in, and I play things like Invasion in UT2004 times to times, as well as Killing Floor 2, No More Room in Hell, among one or other thing, so I am into wave-based survival games myself.
If I remember it correctly, I think it missed some really critical stuff, things the other games had, not exactly in terms of features, but more towards the atmosphere of the whole thing, it felt a bit like playing with cardboard... if you understand what I mean.

This is just my opinion for what it is worth (as always), but I think in PvE games and gametypes, atmosphere is the most important thing, closely followed by progression kind of system and the weapons themselves, and both must work very well and be very smooth for the player, with the right balance.
Because at the end of the day, PvE can simply be resumed to just be playing against "bots", which by itself is not as exciting as PvP, so there must be other elements of interest, and this is also why in BT mappers take the time to do beautiful and interesting maps.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby Terraniux » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:28 pm

Furthermore, you cannot expect mappers to join in immediately, something must be created first and it must work well, without issues, and it must be really fun and be very immersive, in other words, we need to set the example first.
However, this is indeed still quite an undertaking, and it's not trivial and it's not something to be expected to be finished by the end of a single week.



You are missing the point Nog. If you were Jack or somebody else with just and IDEA. Why can't he do it?.
The people replied and was positve and negative. Don't you get that with all product on the world?

I offer Jack my help wherever I can be at mapping. If tt works out, its cool. If is not, cool too. The fun of creating something should block the way of what others think.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby Spectra » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:43 pm

I liked the idea of 1 life-1 game, die and then repeat. I just want to add something to that like a "Revive" system. Each player is equipped with revive kits. When one player dies, broadcast its death and send its location to other alive players on their HUD. One of the alive players will have to go and revive the dead player. Kind of similar to battlefield series. XCoop is a best example.

But this will only work when there are more than 1 player playing on server. Perhaps code a little bit extra and teach bots to revive you when playing offline.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby papercoffee » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:13 pm

@Spectra
Good idea ...but I would refrain from the 1-live-1game approach. It's too frustrating in an online match.
And I would go much simpler.
Regarding my last post about player as tranloc destintations, I would suggest a checkpoint system.
I know experienced mappers can do this already... but I would say it's not simple enough. Or there would be much more maps using this technique.
An actor called checkpoint which has to be touched (or activated through buttons) enables the player to spawn in that region.
This actor would force everyone respawning in this new region ...some kind of safe house where the player can restock his weapons and health. We have already the lesser-tele mutator from sektor2111, combine this with the checkpoint system and we can have progressing game-play without adding new player-starts which have to be activated through triggers and stuff.
Lesser-tele changes every pathnode and item-spot into a player-start.
And I would force weapon-stay so everyone can get the weapons needed for the new section of the map.

You would turn MH into an exploration game without to bore the player with an empty map.

And I would cancel the kill points. Instead I would make a point system which shows the most dealt damage, the player with the most assists, the player with the most resurrections (if this would be thing), the player with the most checkpoints activated etc... The team should win or lose not a single person.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby sektor2111 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:45 pm

Ahah, so you say to switch to other type than backward compatibility. All right, write codes then, and able to work in MH maps with minimal borks.

Now excuse me because something captured my attention... gonna post there...
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby nogardilaref » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:09 pm

Terraniux wrote:You are missing the point Nog. If you were Jack or somebody else with just and IDEA. Why can't he do it?.
The people replied and was positve and negative. Don't you get that with all product on the world?

I am not sure what exactly you're asking here... what do you mean "Why can't he do it?" ?

Not sure if this is what you mean, but I am not actively preventing anyone from doing anything, I am not binding anyone with chains or anything for that matter, and as far as the community is concerned, what I say or do not say has pretty much the same weight as what anyone else says here, so in the end if he opts to do it the exact way he proposed, he's free to do it.

If we're going on what happens on product discussion, then allow me to say that what actually happens (at least from my own experience over the years for what it's worth) is that we might actually start by discussing about creating product A, but then finish the discussion and decide that we should create a totally different product B instead, in virtue of B just being better than A.

sektor2111 wrote:Ahah, so you say to switch to other type than backward compatibility. All right, write codes then, and able to work in MH maps with minimal borks.

And I would write that code fully without a problem, but it just so happens that I am currently building something far more important to me right now, so in case this goes forward, I might only be able to contribute with just a bit of code, such as the interface package itself, and perhaps some help with one or other thing, and maybe a bit of "engine" code as well.

The interface package would be the most critical part of this whole thing to kickstart the edit and creation of new maps, as the engine package could be switched over and even completely refactored later on if needed since the dependencies would be reversed.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby Terraniux » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:41 pm

I am not sure what exactly you're asking here... what do you mean "Why can't he do it?" ?

Not sure if this is what you mean, but I am not actively preventing anyone from doing anything, I am not binding anyone with chains or anything for that matter, and as far as the community is concerned, what I say or do not say has pretty much the same weight as what anyone else says here, so in the end if he opts to do it the exact way he proposed, he's free to do it.


No that's not what I mean. I've been typing all day, got that wrong indeed. typo there. All of these post of you are so long and exaggerating(not in a bad way I think) and just I'm like, where is the support? Did you ever produce a MH map?
So I was like, your flipping every coin over, sometimes a bit unnecessary . Let the product flow. It just got my attention that''s all.
Every post has been valuable so far.

I am getting the feeling I should sit this one out. Coders got more weight here.
Speaking of the different dimension collision we talked about.

Man if the editor wasn't bugging and epileptic, and didn't have hdd crashes in the past I produced over 50+ MH maps. Even tho I suck at botpathing, ( yes Nelsona haha :mrgreen: )
Let me know when an actual MH mapper opinion is valuable. :(



Jack you know what to do. Send me pm what you need as a map, I'll contact you what is needed as code.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby nogardilaref » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:51 pm

I know my posts have a natural tendency to end up being rather big, and is an awful trait of mine as I have highlighted before, and which sometimes gets way out of hand as perhaps seen in this very topic.

But, as I also have said before, a long time ago, as long as anything is up to discussion, and I am interested in such discussion, I will criticize whichever I think it's worth of criticism, and note that as far as criticism is concerned, I only gave constructive one thus far. And I expect nothing less from the community as the same level of criticism back, should I actually post anything of my own.

From there, besides what I have already offered here (opinions, planning, even a bit future help as needed), which kind of further support do you actually expect from me then?
Do you just want me to just blindly go "sure, sure, great idea m8, when do I start?" ? If that's the case I might have been better off just having ignored all of this, and just keep doing what I have been doing thus far on my end.


As far as MH mapping goes... this is perhaps about the 4th time in this forum I am asked to prove my worth in some sense, rather than evaluating the actual posts at hand on their own merits...
Sure, I never did a single MH map in my entire life, your point being? Does that invalidate any of my previous points in some way?

Because I could twist that around and ask you very similar questions, like if you ever coded in your life, or if you realize that we're debating a problem mainly created by MH mappers to begin with, but the thing is, what would be the point? I think everyone here wants the best outcome out of this, and that's only achievable by discussing things out, and evaluate each point on its own merit alone, and not from whom it came from.

I will just add this though: I did plenty of stuff in the past, years worth of development, a few of which is still used nowadays in populated servers (yes, including MH), and that's where all my own experience UT development-wise comes from.
I shouldn't have to point out any of this, but as I am starting to grow tired of that kind of bullshit questions every time a discussion like this arises, there you have it.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby Terraniux » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:03 pm

Because I could twist that around and ask you very similar questions, like if you ever coded in your life, or if you realize that we're debating a problem mainly created by MH mappers to begin with, but the thing is, what would be the point?


As a matter of fact yes I did.

-htm
-html
-css
-php
-javascript
- maybe some other -- kinda forgot.
- binear calculating
- Hex coding.

Got actual diploma for them :lol2: But that was long time ago. I still have the schoolbooks.
I even hacked in schools, and turned teachers at each other. I made teachers go crazy and ###### f.*cking RAGE.
I wrote viruses back then. But I left it all behind for various reasons. I am working as nature guy now [ gardener ] these days.
The screens made me go nuts, from morning to evenings. So from time to time, go inside, start my pc and see whats going on.
rest of the day im outside, wether cold dark warm or cold, i dont care . I enjoy this.
Mapping and stuff is now just a hobby.
Anyway thats another story.


Point is - you are value person here, I am , so Is everone else here.
No need to defend yourself. Read my post above again.

I should stay out of this now. Otherwise it gets personal, I don't want that.


Carry on. Please.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby papercoffee » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:07 pm

Why do I have the feeling that my posts get totally ignored in this thread.
Am I the only one who wants to play MH that way?
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby JackGriffin » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:38 pm

papercoffee wrote:Why do I have the feeling that my posts get totally ignored in this thread.
Am I the only one who wants to play MH that way?

Actually I've spent most of the morning thinking about your post. I have a mod called "SamSpawn" on my coop server that respawns you where you died (if you pass some checks like not in lava etc). I think you might have a really sound and good idea here that addresses a lot of the concerns. You would need to do it in such a way that the player could place a "saved spot" at will during the match and if they died they could go back to there.

paper PLEEZE get discord worked out. We should be talking at great length about this very idea. It might be the linchpin that brings my whole plan together.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby nogardilaref » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:35 pm

@Terraniux:
oh brother...
I see how it is... the fact that you even felt that you needed to distinguish "htm" from "html", and including them along with "css" for "coding", and telling all how about you "hacked" stuff back in school and whatnot, all the while dodging my questions entirely, tells tons about you...
So right back at you, read your own post.

Since I am not here to battle against egos and elitism, I will do just as you suggested, and simply carry on.


papercoffee wrote:Why do I have the feeling that my posts get totally ignored in this thread.
Am I the only one who wants to play MH that way?

At least as I am concerned, I didn't ignore it, it just happens that I also briefly mentioned the checkpoints stuff before as well, along with 1 life being not that great, albeit not in such an amount of detail as you did, so I really didn't have much to add on that, I am completely with you on that. :tu:

As for the scoring system, I totally disagree with you for kills to not count, although I do agree that damage should be taken into account for those points, but damage should be far more valuable than the actual kill, so naughty players do not scheme to try to steal the kill at the very end for a big reward, after the other players took their time in making all the damage, but at the same time the shot which warrants the kill should be rewarded nonetheless because the result is 1 less monster to worry about, since as long as they still have even 1 unit health, they're still a threat as long as they're alive, and if points are only proportional to damage, it's easy for a player to not waste ammo on such a monster and focus on another on with full health, hoping for some other player to kill it.

Deaths should deduct points from the player though, and objectives should warrant a lot more points than killing 30 monsters for example, and should be awarded to all the team, or at least the members near the objective.

Spectra wrote:I liked the idea of 1 life-1 game, die and then repeat. I just want to add something to that like a "Revive" system. Each player is equipped with revive kits. When one player dies, broadcast its death and send its location to other alive players on their HUD. One of the alive players will have to go and revive the dead player. Kind of similar to battlefield series. XCoop is a best example.

But this will only work when there are more than 1 player playing on server. Perhaps code a little bit extra and teach bots to revive you when playing offline.

Yeah, that would be a really cool thing to add, and promotes team work, and it's seen a lot in PvE games, although each one has its own variation.
Although 1 life only might be more frustrating than fun, unless that, with these checkpoints, whenever the team reaches an objective, dead players are able to respawn there and continue the game.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby OjitroC » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:02 am

nogardilaref wrote: As for the scoring system, I totally disagree with you for kills to not count, although I do agree that damage should be taken into account for those points, but damage should be far more valuable than the actual kill ....
Just throwing this out, I wonder if a scoring system is actually necessary at all? Do people care about points? Would points add to the fun and satisfaction of playing this or would they introduce a possible source of the kind of problems nogardilaref refers to?

nogardilaref wrote: Although 1 life only might be more frustrating than fun, unless that, with these checkpoints, whenever the team reaches an objective, dead players are able to respawn there and continue the game.
This is a good idea, as is the "saved spot" - I'm very dubious about one life only but respawning at checkpoints or "saved spots" could help to counter any possible frustration. In fact, I would say that something like this is more or less essential.
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby nogardilaref » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:05 am

OjitroC wrote:Just throwing this out, I wonder if a scoring system is actually necessary at all? Do people care about points? Would points add to the fun and satisfaction of playing this or would they introduce a possible source of the kind of problems nogardilaref refers to?

Well, I personally draw a lot of satisfaction in scoring higher than others in a game, although I help and play with the team, regardless of the game, potentially even risking myself to save another player at times.
Since, although it's a team effort, the individual effort should also be taken into account and rewarded as well, and it's also a way to check whom contributed more or less to the game.

Although, this does introduce a few problems, it's a slippery slope when it comes to coop-style of games between promoting team play vs solo play, but with the right balance it does work out very well for both (at least as seen in plenty of other games of the same kind).
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Re: Back to MHBasic

Postby papercoffee » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:37 am

JackGriffin wrote:paper PLEEZE get discord worked out. We should be talking at great length about this very idea. It might be the linchpin that brings my whole plan together.

What's your name on Discord? I noticed that the private messages are much more stable and don't flicker during typing. And you can add up to 8 person to a private messages session. So no need for a whole channel... for now.
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