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Re: Discussion about consideration as "best maps made by community"

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:05 am
by OjitroC
@ TexasGtar
Yes, very well put - couldn't agree more with all of that :tu:

The best is the enemy of the good - in striving for perfection we may overlook everything that is good (and gives fun and enjoyment to people).

Re: Discussion about consideration as "best maps made by community"

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:21 pm
by Neon_Knight
"Perfection. A goal, always moving. Can chase, cannot catch."

Re: Discussion about consideration as "best maps made by community"

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:26 pm
by Buggie
"Best" in terms of casual players, not map designers. This means beautiful and interesting to play.

Technically accurate maps can be boring and uninteresting to play, although they do not contain any mistakes.

Re: Discussion about consideration as "best maps made by community"

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:45 pm
by EvilGrins
TexasGtar wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:52 am
Best maps made by community
What does that mean?
This forum has released official map packs of maps made specifically by folks that're members, usually made up of compilations from various mapping contests.

Forum used to have its own downloads page... always assumed it was referring to those and that.

Re: Discussion about consideration as "best maps made by community"

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:55 pm
by Swanky
TexasGtar wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:52 am
My thoughts on this are:

Best maps made by community

What does that mean?

Of course it will be different to everyone. There are some maps that are just fun to play. I remember a map called 2 boxes full of lava, it was 2 boxes with lava. But online people loved it and I must admit that it was a lot of fun to play. Is it one of the best maps? If thousands of people loved playing it?

Then you have masterpieces like FNB's Orions Curse where the skybox alone would blow you away with the creativity . the amazing sights sounds complex layout. In fact any FNB map in my opinion is the best. Why? Because of the effort put into it, the amazing ability to transform you to another place with such limited graphics capabilities. I think he is the best mapper ever to open the editor.

As far as the technical side of this argument, I could care less if it isn't perfect as long as it works. You'll never get a map to be perfect in every way. You can tweak bot pathing, item placement, aligning textures, trim ever corner all day and it still won't be perfect. To me, that doesn't matter at all in what I would consider a best map.

What I like is a map that is pretty to look at, and offers an interesting architecture to battle in. A map is basically a room, then a hall to next room, etc. It isn't that complicated. But to make a really good map you have to have good gameplay. If it isn't fun to play, then it doesn't matter how cool it looks. If it looks cool but is boring to play, then you just have a fun to look at map with not much replayability.

It is hard to get gameplay, and scenery and well thought out architecture with battles on several levels to get a great map. And not every part of a great map will be great.

Bottom line is that every player will have their own idea of what is a best map and to them, that is a best map. It doesn't have to be best in everyone's opinion.
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As far as what is "community" I would say it is everyone except the people who got paid to make the game. Simple as that. The fan base is the community.
And everyone who opened the editor for whatever reason and made a map should be commended as well as the community who helped them get to a point where they could make a "best" map at some point in their mapping career. Even if they never do. I know that without the help of unreal playground, I would have never gotten to the point I did where I was fairly satisfied with some of my creations. There was always people willing to help and that was really special and worth acknowledging that without each others help, we wouldn't have so many possible "best maps"

my 2 cents
Agree with you there.
The fan base is the community, it's not just one small forum left over after 20 years.
Also agree that certain aspects of a map can be great, but in order to be considered "best" many to all aspects of the map have to be great - gameplay foremost, but also theme and execution. The latter is probably the least important in the overall scheme of things, but a certain proficiency certainly helped making a map playable (remembers the NC SwaVo][ review that said you needed a rig sponsored by NASA to run the map).

Re: Discussion about consideration as "best maps made by community"

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:08 pm
by TexasGtar
Good points. Gameplay has to be good. Map has to be playable without lag.
============================================================
Maybe a way to make a best maps list would be to start a thread asking people to list their 10 best/favorite maps. Or 5. Whatever.

Let the thread run it's course for a year or so and compile the totals. Maps with the most picks can be the ultimate best as a consensus of people who participated in the thread.
Once you get a list together of the most listed maps, you could have a judging or vote for best of the list to narrow it down.
I don't know, just a thought.
The other thread has 6 pages of suggestions already. Good place to start.

Re: Discussion about consideration as "best maps made by community"

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:33 pm
by Swanky
There's actually not too much in there. Place to start, yes, but probably better to get through your personal collection again. Would have a hard time narrowing it down to just 10 maps or so, even per gametype, since there's thousands of maps for UT. It's community has been huge and *very* active over the course of the game's lifespan.^^ Don't think any other game even came close to the amount of community releases for it (well, probably Skyrim, because bruh).

Re: Discussion about consideration as "best maps made by community"

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:57 pm
by sektor2111
OjitroC wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:51 am
Yes, the fact that the settings of the TrapSpringers are wrong is a technical issue but is it an important issue in the overall context?
Not an overall issue but an issue enough for saying Nothing - I REPEAT × 10 times if needed, these can be used as a GUIDE by others less experienced because are claimed best maps, there is NOTHING to learn about A.I. traps here... and 4000+ reachSpecs perhaps are talking more than words... Lifts and the rest are NOT an example to follow by new mappers. You should learn stuff from these maps instead of "how not to do". Yes, simple cubes usually are working more properly than these uber duber lol-A.I.-traps. If you can recall DM-Pressure - Bots are trapping you properly - here the challenge is mainly None or it happens by accident. And NO for me this is not one of BEST maps.
Then... I think can be helpful a small guide/tutorial/info-doc/forum-post about what does a TrapSpringer when is properly set and/or it's not properly set, and what any other options are embedded/usable with regard to this A.I. actor.
https://hofgamingclan.com/forums/viewto ... 5&start=10
Note: Yes, map works different with simplified paths and TrapSpringers, and No I don't have plans to a public release of an edited version because I don't want to ruin the best map's fantasy and original feeling about map. Perhaps they are too closer to traps triggering combat instead of trapping...
Edit:The network effect of DistanceLightning On-Line it's also a jewel, lol... I apology for my Assault but this one it's not for Players in servers this way.
I think I'm done in subject best maps. Eh, to not forget about Trash Lord:

Code: Select all

MaxNumFound: I found 4258 reachspecs, from 0 to 4257.
WarnDist: 64 reachSpecs have nodes claimed too close.
...
StaticsCheck: Actor ExplodingWall0 is screwed as bNoDelete. Check it... //Will this ever be destroyed as it calls that itself ? Hello ?
StaticsCheck: Actor ExplodingWall3 is screwed as bNoDelete. Check it...
...
LEVELVALIDATE: Level Validation:
NetJerking: Found DistanceLightning0 which is an UT net-gaming bugger. //Flickering junks
NetJerking: Found DistanceLightning1 which is an UT net-gaming bugger.
NetJerking: Found DistanceLightning2 which is an UT net-gaming bugger.
NetJerking: Found DistanceLightning4 which is an UT net-gaming bugger.
NetJerking: Found DistanceLightning5 which is an UT net-gaming bugger.
PlayerStart: Checking PlayerStart1
PlayerStart: Checking PlayerStart2
PlayerStart: Checking PlayerStart3
PlayerStart: Checking PlayerStart4
NotAGoodTrap: TrapSpringer0 is wrong set without both names definition. Usually this heads to a self removal in run-time.
PlayerStart: Checking PlayerStart0
NotAGoodTrap: TrapSpringer1 is wrong set without both names definition. Usually this heads to a self removal in run-time.
PlayerStart: Checking PlayerStart5
PlayerStart: Checking PlayerStart6
PlayerStart: Checking PlayerStart7
PlayerStart: Checking PlayerStart8
PlayerStart: Checking PlayerStart9
PlayerStart: Checking PlayerStart10
PlayerStart: Checking PlayerStart11
PlayerStart: Checking PlayerStart12
PlayerStart: Checking PlayerStart13
PlayerStart: Checking PlayerStart14
PlayerStart: Checking PlayerStart15
PlayerStart: Checking PlayerStart16
UTStockJunksDetected: Map is not really great in Network play with DistanceLightning actors.
FixTrapSpringers: TrapSpringer actors must have both names completed and well connected for working properly.
LEVELVALIDATE: Validation done...
ZoningChecker: ZoneInfo6 and ZoneInfo19 share the same zone
ZoningCheck: Operation finished.
:sleep:

Re: Discussion about consideration as "best maps made by community"

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:00 pm
by Hellkeeper
You're confusing best map and best-built map, Sektor. Some great maps are made with junk by people seemingly insane and using only their feet. Well-built map can be just as crappy and ugly as beginnere's cubes. I don't think "best map" entails any endorsment of the mapping method.
My last UT99 map was sloppily finished with portals cutting semi-solids and nobody cared.

Re: Discussion about consideration as "best maps made by community"

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:41 pm
by OjitroC
sektor2111 wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:57 pm
I REPEAT × 10 times if needed, these can be used as a GUIDE by others less experienced because are claimed best maps ... You should learn stuff from these maps instead of "how not to do".
I think that's an unrealistic and unreasonable expectation for maps made by enthusiasts (the community) - one could reasonably expect to use one of the default/stock maps as a guide on how to do certain things as they were made by professional mappers (DM-Pressure on how to do a TrapSpringer, for example - people are more likely to turn to that one than they are to the map under discussion, after all there is nothing to indicate to a casual player of the map that there are TrapSpringers in the map). Possibly quite a few maps made by the community do provide examples of various things for people to follow but there is no necessary reason why they should do - that is more a byproduct than a core reason for making a map.

I also think you are interpreting 'best' in the wrong way - nobody is saying these maps are THE BEST (in every conceivable respect) - you need to think of 'best' as meaning good maps from the player's point of view and as meaning people's favourite maps.

Re: Discussion about consideration as "best maps made by community"

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:38 am
by sektor2111
OjitroC wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:41 pm
(DM-Pressure on how to do a TrapSpringer,
You did not even understood what I was talking about. DM-Pressure is NOT a good sample in any Way. DM-Pressure works because they edited TrapSpringer code - it does a SELF HACK - Line 18-20 of class TrapSpringer.uc, that's why mappers are not getting why the heck that thing works while other settings done like a sort of copy of DM-Pressure don't work.
Stock has a lot of goofing no worries.

Re: Discussion about consideration as "best maps made by community"

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:09 am
by Swanky
Either way it's not relevant to the "best maps by the community" theme of this thread.