Who wants to try a new map?

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hee
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Re: Who wants to try a new map?

Post by hee » Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:10 am

OjitroC wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:44 pm
Yes, it's certainly a novel and fun map - nice overall concept - each part is well designed and executed creating distinct 'spaces'. Agree that it is an impressive first map.

As already noted, more thought needs to be given to navigation of the map by humans - the bots are basically fine as they just follow their paths but it's trickier for humans. So basically, think how someone totally unfamiliar with the map would find their way around - questions like how do I know which 'lift' takes me up to which team's base? - does the tunnel to the outside need to be 'hidden' (I found it by looking in the editor)? - even how do I know there is an 'outside' or flag bases in the 'spacecraft'?

Nitpicking - the borders in the skybox are rather visible.
Thanks for the detailed information.

It is sort of a puzzle. There is essentially a game within a game. The fake-flag game is entirely in the mountain. Notice how the pick-ups are arranged as if it is the whole game.

Though, as has been mentioned, the trick only works in the beginning. Once the player knows, he simply grabs some weapons and heads for the outside. But since both sides spawn in the mountain and take the same tunnels to the surface, there can be conflict before you even get into the main game area.

I have a home network set up for unreal. We have had up to 6 human players. I sprung this map on the kids without any instructions. My son-in-law was running around the tunnels trying to pick up the fake flags and realized that there was something wrong. The clincher was when the reports said that the flag was being taken (which he knew was impossible). He ordered a bot to capture the flag and then followed him and found a way out (quicker than I expected).

As for the skybox, it is really difficult to match it, especially from every possible viewpoint. I fussed over it a lot, but finally gave up on any sort of perfection. (There are actually 4 skyboxes.)

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sektor2111
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Re: Who wants to try a new map?

Post by sektor2111 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:46 pm

Boys, I'm having a feature capable to find enemy flag when map has PATHS in my custom CTFGame, as result other flags are just USELESS - I have even a mutator tracking enemy flag and ONLY enemy flag. Any "fascinating" map sooner or later is known and then... What is for that game spam ?

Edit: Let's see...
I forum it was fired a thread like a statistic with the most played maps by people On-Line. See there what players are voting and if it worth all efforts for maps which are not played in servers...

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OjitroC
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Re: Who wants to try a new map?

Post by OjitroC » Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:04 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:46 pm
Edit: Let's see...
I forum it was fired a thread like a statistic with the most played maps by people On-Line. See there what players are voting and if it worth all efforts for maps which are not played in servers...
At the risk of derailing this thread .... that's a very negative and narrow viewpoint. Ultimately this is a game - for entertainment, fun, enjoyment. If people enjoy making things and people find fun and entertainment from using those things, then fine - that's what it is all about. A map doesn't need to be the most popular on-line to have been worth the effort of producing it. It can't have escaped your notice that a lot of people on here play a lot off-line - maps don't have to be made to play on-line - playing on-line is not the be-all and end-all. There's a lot more that could be said but .... I won't.

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sektor2111
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Re: Who wants to try a new map?

Post by sektor2111 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:16 pm

OjitroC wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:04 pm
that's a very negative and narrow viewpoint.
My issue - I claim myself Guilty at Court.

You can tell these at those which are not even need maps pathed properly...
Even OFF-Line I don't play spam.

hee
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Re: Who wants to try a new map?

Post by hee » Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:02 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:16 pm
OjitroC wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:04 pm
that's a very negative and narrow viewpoint.
My issue - I claim myself Guilty at Court.

You can tell these at those which are not even need maps pathed properly...
Even OFF-Line I don't play spam.
????? What makes you think it is spam? Are you using the normal definition of spam?

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Re: Who wants to try a new map?

Post by sektor2111 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:39 pm

Look at log files after playing games... When log is loaded with Warnings and all that stuff - it's what I call spam data on my drives...

Code: Select all

ScriptLog: Found CTF-Horizons.FlakCannon0 at -969.479431,1314.136963,-9584.000000
ScriptLog: Warning: CTF-Horizons.Mover6 is BumpOpenTimed.  Bots don't understand this well - use StandOpenTimed instead!
ScriptLog: Warning: CTF-Horizons.Mover9 is BumpOpenTimed.  Bots don't understand this well - use StandOpenTimed instead!
ScriptLog: Warning: CTF-Horizons.Mover8 is BumpOpenTimed.  Bots don't understand this well - use StandOpenTimed instead!
ScriptLog: Warning: CTF-Horizons.Mover7 is BumpOpenTimed.  Bots don't understand this well - use StandOpenTimed instead!
ScriptLog: Warning: CTF-Horizons.Mover11 is BumpOpenTimed.  Bots don't understand this well - use StandOpenTimed instead!
ScriptLog: Warning: CTF-Horizons.Mover10 is BumpOpenTimed.  Bots don't understand this well - use StandOpenTimed instead!
ScriptLog: Warning: CTF-Horizons.Mover13 is BumpOpenTimed.  Bots don't understand this well - use StandOpenTimed instead!
ScriptLog: Warning: CTF-Horizons.Mover12 is BumpOpenTimed.  Bots don't understand this well - use StandOpenTimed instead!
ScriptWarning: FlagBase CTF-Horizons.FlagBase2 (Function Botpack.FlagBase.PostBeginPlay:0080) Accessed None
ScriptWarning: FlagBase CTF-Horizons.FlagBase2 (Function Botpack.FlagBase.PostBeginPlay:0088) Attempt to assigned variable through None
ScriptWarning: FlagBase CTF-Horizons.FlagBase2 (Function Botpack.FlagBase.PostBeginPlay:0090) Accessed None
ScriptWarning: FlagBase CTF-Horizons.FlagBase2 (Function Botpack.FlagBase.PostBeginPlay:0098) Attempt to assigned variable through None
ScriptWarning: FlagBase CTF-Horizons.FlagBase3 (Function Botpack.FlagBase.PostBeginPlay:0080) Accessed None
ScriptWarning: FlagBase CTF-Horizons.FlagBase3 (Function Botpack.FlagBase.PostBeginPlay:0088) Attempt to assigned variable through None
ScriptWarning: FlagBase CTF-Horizons.FlagBase3 (Function Botpack.FlagBase.PostBeginPlay:0090) Accessed None
ScriptWarning: FlagBase CTF-Horizons.FlagBase3 (Function Botpack.FlagBase.PostBeginPlay:0098) Attempt to assigned variable through None
Fake flags are easily doable in MyLevel keeping things clean.
In term of spam, maps has another load with data out of purpose, such as lights into void which are not doing anything there... I could remove 100 - 200 kb from map, without to move anything by only deleting extra-bytes/spam bytes. All actors not relevant for player during game but properties adjusted are creating new bytes due to these corrections at properties, these new settings having no purpose than wasting time during mapping.
Allow me now to re-compress and move map back at warehouse storage. I'll keep it for future experiments...

The rest it's VERY Good Looking stuff, but not very welcomed this puzzling of routes...

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OjitroC
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Re: Who wants to try a new map?

Post by OjitroC » Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:57 pm

hee wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:10 am
As for the skybox, it is really difficult to match it, especially from every possible viewpoint. I fussed over it a lot, but finally gave up on any sort of perfection. (There are actually 4 skyboxes.)
Yes, I can see it would be difficult to match. Having played the map quite a bit, the skybox has grown on me as the lower part of it in particular looks like dark rain clouds rolling in over the sea, so it fits in well enough and adds to the ambiance and atmosphere of the island.

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Re: Who wants to try a new map?

Post by EvilGrins » Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:09 am

Took me forever to get out out the spawning area to the outside area, and that's only because there's a secret passage that goes outside (or someone forgot to put a door in that phased wall) but once I got out there I tested a theory.
OjitroC wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:44 pm
does the tunnel to the outside need to be 'hidden' (I found it by looking in the editor)
I followed a bot... and by the way, nice bot pathing!

For those not wanting to wait for the lifts, if you've got the flag and you can orient yourself well enough, it is possible to jump out of the saucer and land "safely" in the water below. Tricky, but not impossible.

By the by, I noticed there's a Qjet/GhandiJet/Quantum Jet in each saucer. That's interesting...
ExpEM wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:09 am
Why not replace the dummy flags with decorations?
I was thinking something more along the lines of the Food Fight maps, swap the extra flag for a cheeseburger. When i play those maps in CTF4 it makes for an interesting situation, as the cheeseburger is recognized as a Yellow Flag... allowing for more creative scoring.

I'm weird, I like chaos.
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OjitroC
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Re: Who wants to try a new map?

Post by OjitroC » Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:07 pm

EvilGrins wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:09 am
Took me forever to get out out the spawning area to the outside area, and that's only because there's a secret passage that goes outside (or someone forgot to put a door in that phased wall) but once I got out there I tested a theory... I followed a bot...
That's the thing though - if the map is played only humans, they are unlikely to come across the 'hidden' passage, at least for some time - though the ambient sounds do hint at there being an 'outside'. How serious this is depends on what the mapper considers the target 'audience' for the map to be and whether any hints on how to play the map are going to be given in a readme.

I didn't come across the GhandiLaunchers until you mentioned them - and even then only came across the lift down by accident - of course, having found one, it's then fun to fly around the island.

Human players will need to explore all of the island to find the redeemers.

Notwithstanding all that, once one gets into it, it's a fun map with lots to explore.

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Re: Who wants to try a new map?

Post by EvilGrins » Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:39 pm

OjitroC wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:07 pm
I didn't come across the GhandiLaunchers until you mentioned them
I did a skim around the map in Spectator Mode and I noticed there seemed to be a hatch on the front of the saucers... so I peeked in, and there it was.
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OjitroC
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Re: Who wants to try a new map?

Post by OjitroC » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:48 pm

EvilGrins wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:39 pm
OjitroC wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:07 pm
I didn't come across the GhandiLaunchers until you mentioned them
I did a skim around the map in Spectator Mode and I noticed there seemed to be a hatch on the front of the saucers... so I peeked in, and there it was.
I see - I think the lift down to it is 'hidden' in the sense that it is textured the same as the rest of the floor and not really readily visible - but I'll have another look sometime.

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Re: Who wants to try a new map?

Post by EvilGrins » Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:01 pm

OjitroC wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:48 pm
I think the lift down to it is 'hidden' in the sense that it is textured the same as the rest of the floor and not really readily visible
No, that's accurate. Hidden passages really seems to be a thing with this map.

It's a part of the floor in 1 room that you stand on and it sinks.
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hee
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Re: Who wants to try a new map?

Post by hee » Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:22 am

I am glad that some of you are finding the hidden stuff. There is a new version at ensle.org where I have removed all of the lights in the void and fixed the dark spot near the left red lift.

The bump open and navigation points: I am not sure that is a problem. I tested the paths extensively by leading or following the bots through the various paths. If you doubt it, grab the flag and try to find a place to hide where the bots won't find you. (Actually you can, if you go way out in the ocean, but you will eventually have to come back into the active areas.)

The reason there were so many lights in the void resulted from the development. I originally created a map with only an ocean and two sky boxes. I set all of the lighting accordingly. Later I set up the inverted terrain map and vertex by vertex I lifted it out of the ocean. This ended up putting the originally lighting into void locations. I thought I shifted them accordingly, but missed a bunch.

Note that the bots are not pathed to the ghandi jets. This is because they just do not know how to use them. These are added strictly for human players. You may remember my questions concerning these. I wanted the version from the arctic jets map with the nukes so that I could rain death upon my enemies.

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OjitroC
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Re: Who wants to try a new map?

Post by OjitroC » Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:06 am

hee wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:22 am
I am glad that some of you are finding the hidden stuff. There is a new version at ensle.org where I have removed all of the lights in the void and fixed the dark spot near the left red lift.

The bump open and navigation points: I am not sure that is a problem. I tested the paths extensively by leading or following the bots through the various paths.
Thanks for the updated version. A couple of points

1 Revised versions of maps should have a different name to the original version - you can add a suffix like 1 or ][ or rev, etc - so that there are no mismatches;

2 Of the two pathnodes with no incoming connections, PathNode417 looks to be quite important as it will force bots to use one particular route. PathNode17 is not very important in terms of routes but since it has no incoming paths it is 'useless'. If you use the Editor in 469b, right click on Pathnode417 and you will see that the white arrows indicate that it has several paths leading from it but no paths leading to it.

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Re: Who wants to try a new map?

Post by Gustavo6046 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:46 am

@sektor I just realized, maybe PathNodes with no incoming connections can still be useful, so if bots get in them they know how to get out? Like, if they get propelled into a high ledge, othewise they'd stay stuck up there, wandering, instead of doing the obvious thing and jumping down. (Maybe with LiftExits as a little courageous stimulus, am I rite!)

In way too many maps have I been looking for bots for a very long time, in LMS or MushMatch, only to find them stranded away in some high ledge or even above a ceiling window (y'know, those holes where the sky shines through - please use BlockPlayers!).