no Mutators

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hpentium
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no Mutators

Post by hpentium » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:11 pm

Hello, I run a UT99 server online and have a question about mutators. Why do not appear / work in some DM maps mutators, eg Relic: Rain or Relic: Strenght and so on? In most maps they work. But in a few they don't. They just don't appear, which I find very unfortunate. Could it be that the maps are too small for mutators and therefore don't work/appear?

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Barbie
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Re: no Mutators

Post by Barbie » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:39 pm

The Relics are spawned at PathNodes. If the mapper has not done pathing (setting routes with PathNodes), Relics have no location where they can be spawned.
Maybe there exists a Mutator that adds PathNodes on the fly while the map is loaded.
"Multiple exclamation marks," he went on, shaking his head, "are a sure sign of a diseased mind." --Terry Pratchett

hpentium
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Re: no Mutators

Post by hpentium » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:34 pm

Barbie wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:39 pm
The Relics are spawned at PathNodes. If the mapper has not done pathing (setting routes with PathNodes), Relics have no location where they can be spawned.
Maybe there exists a Mutator that adds PathNodes on the fly while the map is loaded.
can you change this afterwards on the map? In the UnrealED? Is there even a possibility to change it? I myself have no knowledge about map building, unfortunately.

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Barbie
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Re: no Mutators

Post by Barbie » Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:07 pm

The cheapest but worst solution would be AutoPathing by UnrealEd (see pic) and saving the map with a new, unique name (add for example your initials to the file name). But before doing so make sure that the map does not have PathNodes (use Edit > Search for Actors... > enter "PathNode").

A solution that avoids editing maps would be a Mutator that adds PathNodes to a map after the map is loaded for playing. The locations for the PathNodes could be in in an INI file for example. Maybe our specialist for pathing, @[sektor2111], can help with this.
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"Multiple exclamation marks," he went on, shaking his head, "are a sure sign of a diseased mind." --Terry Pratchett

hpentium
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Re: no Mutators

Post by hpentium » Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:39 pm

if I send you the maps by mail, could you edit the map for me? That would be very nice of you.

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TankBeef
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Re: no Mutators

Post by TankBeef » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:23 pm

Hmmm...this is interesting. So if a map is not pathed, then mutators like the Relics will not work? Did not know that. :shock:
Just to be clear, are we talking about bot pathing, or something else? Just asking cause I really have no idea.

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OjitroC
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Re: no Mutators

Post by OjitroC » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:58 pm

TankBeef wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:23 pm
Hmmm...this is interesting. So if a map is not pathed, then mutators like the Relics will not work? Did not know that. :shock:
Just to be clear, are we talking about bot pathing, or something else? Just asking cause I really have no idea.
Yes, we're talking about bot pathing (PathNodes) - any mutator that requires pathnodes as a position in which to spawn stuff won't work without them - hence Monster Spawn doesn't work either in maps without pathnodes.

If I come across a map that I think would be good for MonsterSpawn (medium to large, well designed, plenty of cover, easy to move around, etc) but it doesn't have paths then I must admit I use the Editor's Create New Path Network feature - TBH I know it has drawbacks but I'm not that concerned about good pathing for bots in those maps that I do this in - it's only a small number of maps anyway - my main concern is get monsters I can hunt in those maps.

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Re: no Mutators

Post by hpentium » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:41 am

Barbie wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:07 pm
The cheapest but worst solution would be AutoPathing by UnrealEd (see pic) and saving the map with a new, unique name (add for example your initials to the file name). But before doing so make sure that the map does not have PathNodes (use Edit > Search for Actors... > enter "PathNode").

A solution that avoids editing maps would be a Mutator that adds PathNodes to a map after the map is loaded for playing. The locations for the PathNodes could be in in an INI file for example. Maybe our specialist for pathing, @[sektor2111], can help with this.
Thank you very much, it worked as you described. :rock:

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sektor2111
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Re: no Mutators

Post by sektor2111 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:14 am

It works for relics but... in terms of pathing... that's a sort of goofing.
You can have these PathNodes for two or more purposes:
- making Bot to crawl map and reacting as it should;
- using relics;
- using mutators spawning Monsters or other things based on PathNodes and not only nearby "Left Wall" or multiple PathNodes in the same place.
If you want all of these, you might let me look at map to see what is about.

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Hitman
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Re: no Mutators

Post by Hitman » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:48 pm

To have a mutator make a grid of pathnodes before it starts would solve a lot for me on my Gauntlet for ex.

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sektor2111
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Re: no Mutators

Post by sektor2111 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:09 pm

Idk, Epic themselves could not do too many great things here in their automated pathing tool which is very alpha and incomplete - to me that's a big No. In C++ they are capable to examine polygons "walkable" surfaces, testing in 3D space if exist already a node added, preventing them to be placed in death zones, etc. but all was a rush for delivering a lousy wreck out of lifts and nothing like a Teleporter.

For run-time, in Uscript I don't think is easy to find possible locations before to have relics initialized. As far as I know network is studied during startup and you need a fast tool for figuring options at least tracing walls from PlayerStarts and deploying a few nodes around. After that testing nearby places for going more far than that in probably 8 directions. After that, they need to be linked as Navigation Chain because if I'm not mistaking PathNodes for relics are based on navigation chain, wild nodes added in run-time are not connected anywhere. It's a lot of brainstorming for no reason as long as it's easy to have map natively pathed. Of course if we talk about "external" support, if server/game uses XC_Engine there things can be a bit more advanced but... still human eyes are needed, I know a wide range of situations where you need to work with an accuracy which an automated script won't do.

Another solution would be something like my NavAdder capable to load dynamically required plugins based on map-name and having hard-coded locations matching geometry and even generating Bot Support. For relics mutators, in such maps definitely they will need to be delayed - I have delaying tools too. But this Level of polishing a map/game during run-time it's probably hard for majority but it's not impossible. The easiest and fastest solution is Editing Map instead of scripting, not everyone is a programmer.

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Re: no Mutators

Post by hpentium » Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:11 pm

Barbie wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:07 pm
The cheapest but worst solution would be AutoPathing by UnrealEd (see pic) and saving the map with a new, unique name (add for example your initials to the file name). But before doing so make sure that the map does not have PathNodes (use Edit > Search for Actors... > enter "PathNode").

A solution that avoids editing maps would be a Mutator that adds PathNodes to a map after the map is loaded for playing. The locations for the PathNodes could be in in an INI file for example. Maybe our specialist for pathing, @[sektor2111], can help with this.
Good evening, for all maps your tip helped. But for one map it does not work. What I noticed, all the maps that work, have no additional file. The map that does not work has an associated .umx file. I wonder if this is the reason.

Automatically merged

sektor2111 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:14 am
It works for relics but... in terms of pathing... that's a sort of goofing.
You can have these PathNodes for two or more purposes:
- making Bot to crawl map and reacting as it should;
- using relics;
- using mutators spawning Monsters or other things based on PathNodes and not only nearby "Left Wall" or multiple PathNodes in the same place.
If you want all of these, you might let me look at map to see what is about.
hello, thank you very much for your request/help. I have attached three maps that I am interested in. If it is possible to place the relics well

Best regards Juergen from Germany
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Re: no Mutators

Post by Barbie » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:59 pm

hpentium wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:24 pm
for all maps your tip helped. But for one map it does not work.
Is this map available somewhere to have a look at it?
"Multiple exclamation marks," he went on, shaking his head, "are a sure sign of a diseased mind." --Terry Pratchett

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sektor2111
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Re: no Mutators

Post by sektor2111 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:24 am

I'll try first DM-Noda03 because right now I'm curious what's going on... I see that map has PathNodes, not too many but... has Nodes.

Perhaps it needs more PathNodes or something is not working due to various factors - if I'm reading first post again, that target environment for said relics it's a server and then... problem might come from elsewhere... Sometimes mutators loaded in a server will need another placement in chain, but... let me try a game first before to investigate these in detail.
By probing a game I see relics placed somehow hilarious, which means it's not the best ever pathed map, and then solving this problem is easy - if this was the problem under track.


Edit:
Let me now if this what you wanted to be...
DM-NODA-03_rS220.7z
Changes:
Not 1168 paths having usable only 950 because the rest are lost in map unused, but here are 220 paths and Nodes for relics are placed on the bridge and nearby redeemers.

Now I'll look at the others.
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Last edited by sektor2111 on Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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OjitroC
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Re: no Mutators

Post by OjitroC » Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:29 am

Relics spawn in DM-NODA-03 - it's just that they are placed in a row to one side more or less on the parapet of the bridge. I think the OP wants placed better, perhaps more centrally in the bridge?