What mean "make bots smarter"? Describe in details with examples

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Buggie
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Re: What mean "make bots smarter"? Describe in details with examples

Post by Buggie » Sun Oct 16, 2022 10:18 pm

Armor is not shieldbelt.
1 HP + 50 Armor from ThigsPad save you from death with Impact jump?

Take look at ArmorAbsorption parameter for ThigsPad, Armor2 and ShieldBelt. ;-)

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Barbie
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Re: What mean "make bots smarter"? Describe in details with examples

Post by Barbie » Sun Oct 16, 2022 10:22 pm

Que wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 8:22 pm

Code: Select all

function bool CanImpactJump()
{
	return ( bHasImpactHammer && (Health > 60) || (Armour > 50) );
}
Hmm, because AND connects before OR, the above statement could be written as

Code: Select all

(bHasImpactHammer && (Health > 60)) || (Armour > 50)
What happens to CanImpactJump() if bHasImpactHammer is FALSE? :mrgreen:
"Multiple exclamation marks," he went on, shaking his head, "are a sure sign of a diseased mind." --Terry Pratchett

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Re: What mean "make bots smarter"? Describe in details with examples

Post by Buggie » Sun Oct 16, 2022 10:29 pm

Yep. It is reason why usually forbidden place brackets around "Health > 60" and "Armour > 50".

return bHasImpactHammer && Health > 60 || Armour > 50;

Is far more suspicious from form above.

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Que
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Re: What mean "make bots smarter"? Describe in details with examples

Post by Que » Sun Oct 16, 2022 10:39 pm

well if we could do this then immediately make bots a bit smarter :D

perhaps can do in SmartStockBots this addition?

Automatically merged

Barbie wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 10:22 pm
What happens to CanImpactJump() if bHasImpactHammer is FALSE? :mrgreen:
If set to false then Bots attempt to make normal jump across slime/lava for example . Use LE-JS-LE
to cross sections >144 UU.
Last edited by Que on Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What mean "make bots smarter"? Describe in details with examples

Post by Buggie » Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:44 am

Dumber, I think. Since low hp of bot reduce bot ability do stuff, not speak about fast death.

In fact almost never see successful use impact jump by bots.

But be bit of fan learn bots do impact jump on AS-Mazon for fast capture fortress. And see players reaction.

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Que
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Re: What mean "make bots smarter"? Describe in details with examples

Post by Que » Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:58 am

Buggie wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:44 am

In fact almost never see successful use impact jump by bots.

But be bit of fan learn bots do impact jump on AS-Mazon for fast capture fortress. And see players reaction.
They work pretty good here

Impact jump from all four sides.. yes there are alot of LE actors to do this lol.
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Re: What mean "make bots smarter"? Describe in details with examples

Post by Buggie » Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:33 am

Yes. They able do this. But I mean real usage. On real maps. In real battle. usually bot simple die when try do this trick. Or because do it long, or because end at low hp and fast die.
On deck16 they get amp in this way. Most know usage. Firstly they waste here boots, Because not able get udamage with boots. And after goes with hammer.
IDK how many times bot killed on this spot/ You can sit on ambush and just kill bots which try jump to udamage. Very smart, indeed.

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Re: What mean "make bots smarter"? Describe in details with examples

Post by OjitroC » Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:37 pm

Que wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:58 am
They work pretty good here

Impact jump from all four sides.. yes there are alot of LE actors to do this lol.
They do indeed or, more accurately, some of them do.

Tested with 10 different bots - half with translocators. Of the bots with translocs, the MBots just translocated all over the map from pickup to pickup. Of the others with translocs, one attempted to repeatedly tranlocate to the UDamage withouth success.

Of the bots without translocs, a couple did hammer-jump to the UDamage and one took the sensible option of staying on top of the 'pillar' to waiting for it to respawn.

So it's fair to say bot behaviour varies considerably in that map - how much of the observed behaviour is actually desirable in a DM match is a matter of opinion - as Buggie indicates some of that behviour makes the bots easy (and predicatble) targets.

I'm not sure why you would want bots to repeatedly attempt to take the same pickup?

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Re: What mean "make bots smarter"? Describe in details with examples

Post by Old UT Veteran » Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:59 pm

Buggie wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:44 am
But be bit of fan learn bots do impact jump on AS-Mazon for fast capture fortress. And see players reaction.
Using a path toggler, this can be done with random results. Though to get the bot to 'cheese' the level is another topic.


Buggie wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:44 am
In fact almost never see successful use impact jump by bots.
That depends to be honest. For the most part, where authors have chosen to use such fancy navigation, the bots will give interesting or bad results. I have seen some good and unexpected usage from bots.


Buggie wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:33 am
On deck16 they get amp in this way. Most know usage. Firstly they waste here boots, Because not able get udamage with boots. And after goes with hammer.
IDK how many times bot killed on this spot/ You can sit on ambush and just kill bots which try jump to udamage. Very smart, indeed.
Not to defend bots but for the most part, where improvements with navigations can be done, such behavior will not be commonly seen. In the end, a lot is in the hands of the map creator. I have never seen anyone online use impact for Udamage on deck lol.

If anything, such is done via ramp jump onto boxes. Bot fix? Link paths and bots will jump there. No need for lift exit - jump spot - lift exit combo. Sektor has already show various solutions. I think even XC addons for Editor have way to link nodes. Although you are right, but i think with fine-tuning you can get a variation of good and bad results.

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Re: What mean "make bots smarter"? Describe in details with examples

Post by sektor2111 » Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:06 pm

Do you want my opinion ? I was "fascinated" (mostly frustrated) in how pro players were taking amp in Deck16 without "tools" by just jumping from ramp. On the other hand for the same chapter I think combos in that map for taking amp are just useless. You can have at least 2 locations which can be used for jumping on boxes. The rest is... dynamic nodes capable to change their location in certain range, Bot won't step in the same place all the time... :mrgreen: . Here I need to study how to do movement like movers... if possible. If not we might use a Mover for helping with those "dynamic" nodes. A Lift it's already showing 50% the "How To".
Old UT Veteran wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:59 pm
I think even XC addons for Editor have way to link nodes.
Yes it has, like it was specified already, Builder has a high power. This power should be handled with care for good results, or else Paths-Net goes into a total misery.
If anyone is finding that builder too difficult, feel free to do your own one. Even with a very intuitive interface you still need to know what you want.

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Re: What mean "make bots smarter"? Describe in details with examples

Post by Que » Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:23 pm

OjitroC wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:37 pm

I'm not sure why you would want bots to repeatedly attempt to take the same pickup?
Just. Proof of concept.. and also so they know when to return to the pickup during a match. Where if you spawn 2 bots they rarely jump up there because of the heat of the battle.

They could be camping the amp spot because I reduced the timers to speed things up a bit.

Automatically merged

Curious how bots detect edges as they rarely fall off.
So they must have some smarter a.i for this purpose
Aside from pathnodes.
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Re: What mean "make bots smarter"? Describe in details with examples

Post by papercoffee » Tue Oct 18, 2022 9:05 pm

Another Idea ...Artificial dumbness.
Bots can see you through walls but they can't guess ...when a player goes hiding behind a wall bots know where the player pawn is. Bots should try to "guess" where the player could be and fire prediction shots. and of course the "guess" should fail much more often than success.

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Re: What mean "make bots smarter"? Describe in details with examples

Post by sektor2111 » Wed Oct 19, 2022 5:11 pm

papercoffee wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 9:05 pm
... when a player goes hiding behind a wall bots know where the player pawn is.
Actually because of Paths. This "original" solution I did not remove - I reinforced it. Why ? Perhaps I'm lazy, instead of running for hunting them, I can stay somewhere letting them to get closer. There is a connected issue here: instead of making game harder, in some maps it goes X times easier, not all time but...
To not forget, I remember a map with a small room having shieldbelt inside. All I did a few minutes was to go there, not taking shield but just waiting. When door started moving, I fired a rocket at bottom of door, I killed X Bots without even to see them normally... I could see some legs and then... carcasses.