About Unreal Tournament

[Feralidragon]

So guys, I have been thinking and somewhat "studying" the progressive death of this game for quite a while and the rising of others to see what made some game loose players and what made a game be revived and win plenty in a short period of time.
There's no denial that this game is loosing players, however the more I think about it, many of the reasons people generally state for it do not make sense to me given what I already saw in plenty of others, far inferior ones technologically, in security, stability, performance and the list goes on. Digital history shows clearly that "better" or "new" doesn't matter as much when it comes to attract people to anything, just originality, interest and opportunity.

Now, I have some ideas that could probably spice a bit the scene again (and no I am not talking about mods or maps or whatever), but I have some ideas which finally I have the independence and the ability to go forward with.
But to be able to do anything at all, I need something from you guys:
- your raw, brutally honest and open stance on things, on what you hate and on what you would like to see in the overall game.

On in other words, post the things you enjoyed before and want back, the things you hate or always hated, be either mods, maps, things in the game itself, development scene, admin scene, players scene, competitive scene, etc, take this opportunity to say whatever you want about the game and your ideal view on things.
I need data to know which of my ideas are viable and which aren't. I won't tell about my ideas for now because I don't want to bias you guys, as I want to read about your stance on things at this very moment.

Furthermore, don't count on anything just yet, nor in the next weeks, or in the next months, or ever, at least for now until I manage to present something solid, but I would highly appreciate if you guys actually cared to give me some input on your views.
I will only post this topic here, since I know plenty of people visit this forum frequently, either as guests, either as just logging in. So if you can take 5min or less to make a post on what I just asked, either a tiny or big one (it doesn't matter), please do so, and feel free to spread this information request through your own forums too if you wish, and return it back here by quoting the members or referring the link to them.

The first step before taking a direction on something, is listening and gathering data, and that's what I am trying to do for now and I would appreciate your cooperation at least in this first phase.

Thank you in advance

[papercoffee]

For me the main reason I enjoyed UT till now was the ability to modify everything ...You could make your own maps, your own mods, your own skins, your own voices ...multiplayer, singleplayer, coop EVERYTHING !!
UT itself was more a Sandbox-game then all those Sandbox-games out there nowadays.
I don't know but I can say from my point of view, UT is the most modded game ever ... second is Half-Life.

Oh and the fast-paced game style where you have to run and gun and hit to win ... not many games could give me this.

What I didn't liked in UT was the handling with textures ...in King-Pin L.o.C was the map texture .tga with transparent support ...it was easy to handle and to modify ...the player avatars got an .pcx skin with Indexed colors but this was also easy to handle.
And as long as I know was there no limitation on dimension on the map texture.

[EvilGrins]

I think the main draw, which pulls people away from the game, is better graphics and more realism in some of the more advanced 1st person shooters that exist today. I have, not surprisingly, a screenshots thread on BeyondUnreal's forum and people primarily post shots of other games that are stunningly realistic.

UT99 is still as good as it ever was, possibly better than the more visually stunning games, but as a whole people are very visual in what they find enjoyable.

What I like most of all, of all maps of any gametype, is monsters. Again, not a surprise. From DM-TitanCity (2 nearly unkillable titans in city streets built to their scale) to CTF-ProjextX (a dark alien landscape with a skaarj on it that even in better lighting is nearly invisible), people have been putting monsters on maps for ages. It's not always done well but it's generally always interesting.

Other than that, hard driving and fast paced music. I'm an action movie junkie and that works for me.

[Carbon]

The answer is both stunningly simple and incredibly complex at the same time.

UT is old. It's been done and redone a thousand times. The new generation of gamers weren't on the boat when it sailed gloriously and now only see a speck on a horizon that is littered with shiny, pretty games. Consoles have taken a huge potential audience from PC games. This is a major factor in the decline of PC gaming as a whole.

The final answer is that the series - Unreal in general - needs a highly successful reboot to renew interest. And while I am not a really big GoW fan, the coattails are long and thick enough that Epic could cash in on the younger gamers with the name to lure them to unreal. Some clever marketing could bring back interest in the old game; marketing and a bit of work from Epic. If they had 3 or 4 guys doing development on Ut and Unreal to coincide with a new game, it could be truly explosive. Revamp the editor, get new people interested in making levels for the new and old.

The fate of the legacy and future of Unreal and UT is in Epic's hands. Like I said, to put a small team on further developing the first two landmark games in the series and "re-launch" them at the same time as a new Unreal (heck, give away copies of UT with purchase of the new game) and that is the ticket. Without major player support, UT will continue to decline until it is just a "vintage" game from the "good ol' days". If we are honest, UT has had a heck of a run, thanks to you guys who keep modding and keep it fresh. However, without major marketing muscle to prod to a new generation, things will only get worse.

I have so much to say about this, but to stay on-topic, I will stop here. Bottom line: there is only so much that a small community can do and I think we have carried the torch just about as long as it will burn.

[Dr.Flay]

For me the Chaos mod exemplifies UT in both its versions.
The lack of Chaos for UT3 is the main reason I don't play it.
Aside from the weapons and pickups, it's about attitude.
UT should always be about fun, slightly silly, and over-the-top.

I do play a bit of CS/Infiltration style stuff, but these days it's just more suitable for the swarm-zombies.
(Zombies and shotguns go together, like flies and sh*t.)
That's the beauty of UT, you can have it all (almost).

The only other thing in the UT world that I felt was a natural extension, is the RPG mod for UT2K4.
Like Chaos, it can generally run with any other mod, and mostly you can just forget it is running.
The combination of Chaos and the RPG framework for my taste are the peak of gaming.
I'm not a fan of beat-em-ups, but for some reason I love the melee combat in Chaos

When UT excels, it is fluid and the player hardly has to think about options and menus in-game.
Modern shooters are all getting very menu-heavy, and too much emphasis on mods like new skins for your weapons, instead of a cool new super-power.
Many of my mates are big fans of C.O.D. but even playing the zombie part of it just bores me.
No relics, or "unreal" pickups, and always limiting the amount of weaponry you can carry.
Our engine may have aged, but our mod concepts have always been ahead of the game.

UT maps and mods that stand-out for me, are the things that blur the lines between genres.
We play with futuristic weapons in ancient worlds, using magical relics in Sci-fi cities, fighting monsters and zombies, while trying to claim a rag on a stick across a frogger-inspired busy road.
UT2K4 is my favourite all-time game ( sorry), not because of the engine, but because of the mods.
In no other game can I ride a hover-board or stunt-battle-bike into battle, being chased by dinosaurs, then jump into a tank crushing zombies under my tracks, while shooting dragons from the sky

Our maps have got bigger, and I think certain areas of UT99 maps get over-looked.
We have larger water zones and big open skys. Higor's AI is a good way to get mappers to use areas of maps they traditionally ignore. We certainly have more flying things now than anyone expected in 1998.
Testing large/complex maps, needs mappers to watch the bots using all the areas, and this is a fault of many maps that look great but play poorly.
And recently our ability to repeatedly wreak total devastation across massive scale has again surpassed other modern games.

What I don't like is BSP, and the limited map size, and we don't have boats in UT99.

[Feralidragon]

Here's the thing: what I hear as main argument for the declining of the game is that: is old, is inferior to others technologically, is getting boring, etc...
However, I know for a fact that those are not entirely valid reasons for one to leave a game.

How to I know this? Because I know games which are painfully far inferior to UT in EVERY way, and also are old, yet are fairly popular. My brother actually "mods" and "maps" for one of them (and only I know the pain to look at the code of that game every time he requests my help with something he's having trouble with).

CoD, BF, TF2, CS, GoW, etc... all these games are still popular... however I played most of them myself and they get boring pretty quickly, so why people still play them?
Easy: because they have something to loose if they do. Through the game they level up, they win stuff, make achievements and least, they are able to create individuality and uniqueness, but not last: the competitive scene.
All the popular games have something in common, and is not the fact of being new or old, it's not because they look prettier or uglier, it's not because they are more or less realistic, is something far more simple and which can be achieved in this game.

What happens in UT right now is that: there are tons of servers running, but most of them are empty all the time. Players are able to leave the game because they have absolutely nothing to loose by doing so, and eventually they come back for some shooting, but they don't stay for long since their time investment and individuality elsewhere talks louder.
Furthermore the whole scene is fragmented and unfocused in what's really important: the players.
We have sites for everything: this one for general UT talks, UA for admin stuff, USP for single player stuff, ModDB for mods, Mapraider for maps.... what about players and the servers? What about news of what's happening everywhere?

UT is rigged with a lot more than you guys think, and it's highly underused, plus the fact that it can be extended only adds to its potential.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback so far, but I really want more people to give some input on this and vent out what they're really thinking.
I am going to try to get something moving in the next months, and I need data on what people are really thinking, despite if you either believe or not the game has any chance to get up again.

[UTPe]

What would I like to see ? UT99 without bugs and a better net engine. Then I can die happy
Ok, there is something more to say about...

Well, I totally agree with papercoffee.
A friend of mine told (and still tells) me UT99 finally died because of too much modding...really ? I think, on the contrary, this was its greatest feature. UT99 offers endless possibilities, everyone can partially or totally model the game for his purposes. Every new mod released in the past years and also recently brought the game to a new life: new weapons, new game styles, new matches, new servers. Does it exist a greater feature ?
But there is also something else that makes UT99 better than UT2004/UT3: simplicity and playability, 2 features that don't exist (both) anymore in the modern FPS games. Evilgrins is right, people like better graphics and realism, this is the physiologic sign of the times but everything has a price, not always the final result is better only because a game is newer than others.
Obviously, neither UT99 is perfect, it has its Ins and Outs too.


What I liked most in UT99

- multiplayer mode: this means endless play, development of online communities and shared solutions for game issues
- simplicity: after 10min, everyone can play the game by learning the functions of the weapons/items
- playability: endless, after 10years people still play the game
- weapons: weapons are graphically different and can be easily recognized
- mutators: the ability to modify specific features of the gameplay
- models/skins/voice packs: they can all be modded for your own purposes (standard models are awesome !)
- audio/soundtrack: awesome !
- Unreal Engine 1.x graphics: a milestone in videogame history
- Unreal Editor 2.0: a tool packaged with the game that offers endless possibilities to players and developers (adding an editor means to open the doors of the universe)
- Unreal Engine open architecture: stuff previously developed (textures, audio, sounds, components) can be re-used for new works and, despite copyright rules, also stuff from other Unreal Engine based games can be used to develop mods/mutators/maps for UT99
- MapVoteLAv2: one the best server tools ever built (even though it can be further improved)
- server configuration: everyone can setup his server with many configurations/maps and host multiple mods by changing parameters in UT.ini/MapVote.ini (standard config, clan match config, training config and so on...)
- sniper mods: I've been playing sniper by 2009 in every style, camping/freestyle/zark/crouchrifle/bunnyrifle/bolt action/sniper arena, I can say a lot of dedicated amazing maps were built for these mods, it's an amazing game style, imho one of the best mod ever (this is the reason why UT99 sniper community is still so active...)


What I disliked most in UT99

- single player mode: only an useless waste of time, better to play Unreal
- net engine: I think Epic could do much better...
- Unreal Editor 2.0: sometimes buggy, sometimes hard to understand
- mapping tools: the game is old but the level of compatibility with external 2D/3D tools is too low
- coding tools: again, the game is old but the UnrealScript editor in UEd 2.0 sucks
- lack of docs by Epic about mapping/coding: again (and again), the game is old but UnrealScript looked like a "dark magic" without the docs released by community, the few docs published by Epic are pretty ridicolous



Everything, soon or later, comes to an end and this will happen also for UT99. But surely not now, not still.
Maybe this game is dead and buried according to Epic developers but I would like to remember to everyone here that more than 600 servers, forums, clans, players and skilled developers are still active on the scene. After almost 15 years, despite its bugs and limits, this game is still able to surprise (think only about NW3).
Anyway, this was a fantastic ride because of the awesomeness of this game, unique in videogame history.
The only thing better than UT99 is a better UT99 (with no bugs and new features)


regards,
Pietro

[darksonny]

For me the Chaos mod exemplifies UT in both its versions.

What I don't like is BSP, and the limited map size, and we don't have boats in UT99.

That it'S a unreal editor with their limitation engine as ever version on ut does it have their limits nothing its perfect in the life lol

UT is for me the best on all series, but maybe the only fail is apart for ueditor im not mapper but manyu says its buggy, maybe some of the weaponry from ut is a little imperfect ( example the goo that in ut2k4 or ut3 were slowly more better than the ones in ut99 ), without mods and expandable usermade contents their fate could be a dead faster or would have died at 1 o 2 years...the falling beging to happen is in ut3. I blame not only Epic same is for microsoft to not permitting user made content with their fuc*** assconsole, with that consolized menu and poor options ( graphics, spectator option ...) Why they did get out those features in game if were fien and got success?

Dont quit features that runs perfectly in game and got succes on ut fans, they did that and game slowdown to end losing player, another big fail, dont sell unifished products.

Ut3 was one of the less moddable ut game series, aside with that horrible serverbrowser.

When epic sehelved ut with no date is where ut and overall series is going down in numberplayers.
UT99 for me has few bugs but its ok form me and I can live with that.Long live ut!

[papercoffee]

A Friend of mine (a hardcore PS3 fan and Kill Zone and BF3 player) called UT an Arcade style shooter.
It's too fast, too ugly, too colorful ...I replied "Yeah brown and bloom-effect is much more realistic" brown is the new real.

The young player nowadays don't like the fast game style because they can't locate any enemy in this brown-and-gray-particle-effects-puking-High-Definition Bull-CRAP.

Maybe you are right Ferali ...and it is the gaining-system what keeps player in a game. But I think it's also the graphic.

Some people are graphic-junkies and only like the newest game ...for a month.
After that do they search for the next better graphic.
Game play is for this people second. But for them are the games made today ...not for gamer.

And then there is this "game" called Minecraft.

[darksonny]

"The young player nowadays don't like the fast game style because they can't locate any enemy in this brown-and-gray-particle-effects-puking-High-Definition Bull-CRAP."

this
Say to your beloved friend "buy a nice and graduated glasses hey"

Solved

pd: There is another solution set bright light keys to maximum anbd thats ...anyway... facepalm

[Feralidragon]

It's true that the graphics attract a lot, but they don't keep anyone in a game at all.
Minecraft is a nice example on how despite the shitty graphics, a game can still reign supreme. A co-worker here runs a Minecraft server, and he keeps telling me how fucked up that game actually is internally: literally everything breaks after most updates, sudden memory leaks, tremendous bugs, and the list goes on.
But why people keep at it? Because the game promotes creativity heavily in a very simple straightforward way, there's nothing comparable to it.

However, the fact that I know games which are terrible in all levels and still manage to keep thousands of players (my brother included) shows how gamers actually think.
A GoW player only stays there because he worked his ass off to win medals, achievements and leveling up. Take that from them and make them start over, and they leave to another game: I saw it happening.
UT started up in the scene and had stats afaik, the thing was abandoned but there was still the competitive scene, then that one was kinda lost too and modding/mapping kept the game alive (the most popular UT server nowadays is a whole new gametype, a mod).

Many implemented their own stats, but are ultimately uninteresting because they're not global, competitions are still being tried but the lack of better tools and advertising on those make some of them fail, the game has so many mods and maps that it starts to have a negative impact on the game since among 5 amazing mods and maps there are 1000 garbage ones. The fact that servers load up hundreds of maps in a mapvote, yet people vote always for the same maps shows the problem clearly on what people enjoy.
Then the hundreds of empty servers that waste precious time in loading up in the server browser...

Since I am registered at plenty of places and tried plenty of servers in the past and nows, shows to me that there are still players eager to play, but once they arrive to the game, they don't know where the hell they are going to, unless they already know the server they're going to play on, and once that one disappears, some go to another server and others leave the game completely, hence the decline of a once great game.

But by looking at other games, new and old ones, pretty and ugly, well built and poorly built, the crucial factors are: information + attachment + fun.
A player wants to start the game and play, and after having spend some time on it feel achivement, but rather than give him the game directly, the path may be along the exact opposite, but I am not going to talk about that for now.

[papercoffee]

Because we talk about nowadays games compared to UT ...achievements
now Microsoft is going to be totally loony http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2 ... hievements

[GenMoKai]

Sooooo much to read, but i skip a lot

Things i always loved was a really different oldskool style of gameplay. If you take a look at the games of nowadays, its almost the same... just shoot and thats it in my opinion. In UT, every weapon has his pro's and con's And that is something i always like. Aspecially the shockcombo... it needs practise, but its damn more satisfying then a standard "headshot" in most games


UT gives a lot of options to do, but most i think are modding and mapping for the most part. I always miss that in most of the games nowadays, its so sad. The game is old... i know, but for the time its still played, i still think that is great!

If i have more to say... i add it but for now im out of words

[EvilGrins]

(Zombies and shotguns go together, like flies and sh*t.)

And now i'm picturing undead flies armed with shotguns filled with poop.

Thanks.

[Dr.Flay]

I played a bit of GoW, but after the initial OOHHH and Ahhhh looking at the effects and graphics, it quickly lost my interest.
Too much fiddling with menus.
I watched the owner of Loading Cafe play the new "UFO Enemy unknown" and was amazed at how short the game was.
My mates played the original, and it kept them amused for months.

The games-market is changing, and not in our favour.
As we have said, the new way of keeping you coming back for more is with this rewards system, that frankly I don't understand.
My mate spent hours in COD repeatedly doing the same boring task, so he could unlock something that wasn't even a powerup (I think it was a gold skin for his gun).

Shooters are turning into WoW ! What the hell is that about ?

We can have a progressive reward system that suits our needs. I point you again to the example of the RPG mod for 2K4.
This can be used across servers, and you can build your stats offline in bot-matches.
It never breaks the flow, as you can allocate your stats whenever you have a quiet moment.
In practice it feels more like an extension to Chaos.

Also lets not forget that UT does give players awards, but the info is ignored and discarded.
I have raised this before, as I think a server-mod that uses this info would be useful.
UT itself should also show the awards you got, without you needing to hit a button.