Who uses S3TC textures? Poll.

[KingJosh]

Hi all I am currently making a map that uses some 1024x1024 textures... When I disable the D3D9 S3TC feature it makes the 1024x1024 into a 256x256 mipmap that doesnt look near as nice. Once I go back to my D3D9 settings and re-enable S3TC it looks great as it displays textures back to 1024x1024. So I made a poll to see how many people use a modern render (D3D9 + or a newer opengl) and have the settings optimized. The reason I am asking is because I want to see if most people will find the larger download sizes worth it and to see if most people will get the maximum experience of the map Im making.

Thanks all who vote

[papercoffee]

Never use the S3TC textures for mapping.

[KingJosh]

Im not using S3TC packages for mapping. I am using 1024x1024 BMp images and importing them into unreal ed with the 'generate mipmaps feature' being used. So if you have D3d8 the map works fine, but looks worse because its using the 256x256 mipmap, but if you have d3d9 with the s3tc option enabled it doesnt use mipmaps but instead the original 1024x1024 verison, which looks better.

[papercoffee]

Then should you better rename your thread-title ...your poll asks for the renderer but your title says texture.

[UnrealGGecko]

Ain't 512x512 enough for a hi-rez texture? Sure it would look nicer as 1024x1024, but that doesn't compansate for the filesize. It might also be unplayable on the regular d3d (spews an error and crashes ut with that one).
That's only my opinion

[ASLY]

I using S3TC textures if I playing online Monster Hunt, Bunny Track, or just if I laming somewhere and in Practice Games
I using D3D9 render, and I made a folder for the S3TC textures and for the standard ones, so easily I just re-copy the textures
In mapping uses S3TC? - Yes
I trying to use standard textures which is S3TC
But Im already thinking would be good a new pack, or maybe in my next map project I made own one
S3TC Textures are the best if in 1024x1024 or 2048x2048 resolution
I think maps needs S3TC textures, we are in 2013... 14!

[zacman]

You'd be surprised how many people use ancient renderers. I made a CTF map for a contest a while back, and the big complaint was the textures were all skewiff - A surprising number of players use stock renderers or even software rendering. It really depends on the gametype and the community around it.

[TheDane]

@Asley702: I can't find a single argument to support the use of 2048x2048 textures? The filesize will IMO just increase way too much and UT looks fine with "just" 256x256 textures to me, but I accept that some mappers will prefer to use 512x512, but anything above that have very little effect on my visiual look-and-feel and won't add anything to the gameplay for me. And if you place an object in the map which is fully visible to the player, I seriously doubt that you (ingame) will notice if the texture used is 512x512 or 2048x2048? Maybe if you do screenshots and study them after, but during game I honestly don't think anyone will ever notice it.

[zacman]

@Asley702: I can't find a single argument to support the use of 2048x2048 textures? The filesize will IMO just increase way too much and UT looks fine with "just" 256x256 textures to me, but I accept that some mappers will prefer to use 512x512, but anything above that have very little effect on my visiual look-and-feel and won't add anything to the gameplay for me. And if you place an object in the map which is fully visible to the player, I seriously doubt that you (ingame) will notice if the texture used is 512x512 or 2048x2048? Maybe if you do screenshots and study them after, but during game I honestly don't think anyone will ever notice it.

I find this is one of those arguments much like audio - If you're one of the people that notices (and cares), you notice, if you aren't, you don't. The difference is there, and is noticeable if you're the kind of person geared towards spotting it, but those of us that aren't never notice or care.

Of course, the best way to make everybody notice is to mix stock textures in with high res textures. So if you're going for the high res textures, the whole map should utilize them, which will make the filesize quite large (it's also the reason I don't play with the S3TC textures - They can make some custom texture packages look horrendous in comparison.)

[Metalfist]

I don't really use them. Some S3TC textures look weird when comparing with the original, just take a look at the metal floor texture with a bit rust. Original one is a bit brownish like rust, but the S3TC one looks too redish wich ruins the colorscheme of the level.
And yes you see the difference between 512 and 2048, but it is higly unnecessary to go that high and I would keep the max at 512. Its an old game after all and I think keeping it compatible and low on MB is more important, bcs low downloadtime is key to keeping players at your server (and the redirect system is old too).
Besides if you want a higher resolution texture of say 1024, why dont you just split it up in 4 x 512 ones? That way you keep compatibility. Epic split up their textures as well to achieve more resolution with the limitations they had.

[Feralidragon]

Besides if you want a higher resolution texture of say 1024, why dont you just split it up in 4 x 512 ones? That way you keep compatibility. Epic split up their textures as well to achieve more resolution with the limitations they had.

I just want to say that in most cases it's not that easy. Check the skybox textures for instance, you either had to make them look pixelized by setting bNoSmooth in their surfaces, or you would have blurry lines in the place the textures should perfectly tile, defeating purpose of splitting completely.
Furthermore, you can only use 1 texture per surface, which means that if you want a higher res floor with that method, you have to split the floor polys into 4, which in some cases is not even feasible if that floor or wall extends a lot beyond the natural resolution of each texture (since you would have to split the polys into 16, 64, or more, creating higher BSP depth, along with the natural BSP issues, plus having a greater performance hit).

Having that said, the current S3TC textures are truly art forms, however like Metalfist said, they ruin completely the original feeling (and also the intended visual) of the maps because the author decided to change completely many of them. For instance, the very first map you play in UT (in tournament single player) gets completely ruined with lights cut off in the middle and whatnot, something that doesn't happen with the original textures.

Perhaps the real question is how someone can create these S3TC textures for a lower-res texture in the first place, since there seems to be no documentation on this regard and I heard some time ago the people who knew how to do it and do it correctly didn't really want to share that information for some reason.

[zacman]

Perhaps the real question is how someone can create these S3TC textures for a lower-res texture in the first place, since there seems to be no documentation on this regard and I heard some time ago the people who knew how to do it and do it correctly didn't really want to share that information for some reason.

I converted some old Unreal Beta textures for Delacroix a while back, you have to take the texture and completely rebuild it, using the low-res like a stencil. Hence why most of them don't look like the original - It's a new texture that happens to look like a lower res texture, not a high res version of the same. My understanding of the S3TC textures was that drawscale was used to make them appear at the appropriate dimensions. The trouble with reconstructing textures, of course, is they aren't going to be the same - With a bit of work, some textures can be made to line up at places they wouldn't otherwise tile without too severe a seam. Once you change the texture, that portion is now changed, and unexpected seams are bound to result. No matter how good you are, S3TC textures are never going to be true to the originals, and they're going to look jarring next to more normal textures.

If you want to make sure it isn't jarring for anyone, you have to make your entire map custom textures of the same res, and that sends filesize rocketing quite quickly, which is fine for SP maps, not so much for MP gametypes (If I had a dollar for every time I've been disconnected because the map changed before I finished downloading all it's files...)

[Dr.Flay]

I very much love using massive 2048x2048 and bigger textures, where they make sense to use.
It means you can walk right-up to a wall or other large area, and still not see any blocky pixels.

The size of your monitor and chosen resolution have to be large enough to appreciate the difference, or you gain nothing.

My personal opinion as most of you know, is that unless you have Win95/98, that anyone that insisting on using ancient Windows 95, DX5-7 renderers, should have their PC burned, and given a Gameboy or a calculator to play with.

We are living in another decade/century since the game was made.
Do not feel any need to compromise, if you can easily explain the fix or requirements in the readme.
Move forwards and upwards.

[Red_Fist]

Calculator, haha.

Ever since I knew about the second disk and when openGL got upgraded from the stock version, I have always used the textures off the second disk.
Use the same stuff for mapping as well, no problems, never was, to use for mapping.

But why not, they came with the original game, besides UT had to be better than quake in at least for one reason.

[Carbon]

I very much love using massive 2048x2048 and bigger textures, where they make sense to use.
It means you can walk right-up to a wall or other large area, and still not see any blocky pixels.

The size of your monitor and chosen resolution have to be large enough to appreciate the difference, or you gain nothing.

My personal opinion as most of you know, is that unless you have Win95/98, that anyone that insisting on using ancient Windows 95, DX5-7 renderers, should have their PC burned, and given a Gameboy or a calculator to play with.

We are living in another decade/century since the game was made.
Do not feel any need to compromise, if you can easily explain the fix or requirements in the readme.
Move forwards and upwards.

I have to second this. There is no reason not to use high-res stuff these days. Way fast computers, big monitors and bandwidth galore...bring on the huge textures!