New "home"

[Feralidragon]

Until Hourences posts up that he's upset no one ought to be speaking for him about any matter. He was always great with me and my money is on him blessing his work being used in any fashion, repackage or not, but that's for him to say.

No one needs to speak for himself, he clearly states the license in the usage of his textures in his own site: http://www.hourences.com/texturespage/
And it just took me a few seconds to get there. Only because he was nice enough to lend you a hand, it doesn't grant you the right to rip his entire arm off just because he didn't tell otherwise.

As for the rest... I won't even comment on those...

[JackGriffin]

Fair enough old friend. It's probably a debate that serves absolutely no purpose. People are going to do what they are going to do regardless of your or my opinion on the matter.

In reading your posts you've made lately I see a decided change in your response...style, I guess? I hope everything is OK. Remember, it's just pixels on a screen. Don't take all this seriously. You remind me of me when I started getting irritated at things in the community. Take a couple of months off and you'll see that it's just really not that important. It should be recreation for someone, not reason for someone. God, I wish I'd known that a decade ago.

[EvilGrins]

Remember, it's just pixels on a screen.

KILL THE PIXELS!
pixels pixels pixels

[Feralidragon]

My response "style" has indeed changed for the entire past year, and is still changing. The change is simple: keep it short and direct. I still fail to do so (a lot), hence still being in the process of improving my own replies.

When it comes to the respect of another developer's work, I take it seriously indeed, either there are just 10 or 1000 developers out there. Just pixels on the screen? Well, there are real people behind the making of those pixels, and they spend plenty of hours of their own to make those pixels shine through the screen in a way that keeps you looking at them, isn't that right? Or have you forgotten about it yourself? To not mention that for another developer this means not having to spend more time than the necessary to make something in a feasible time frame.

Therefore, regardless of what other people think or tend to do as a group or even as an entire community, one shouldn't simply let himself go with the current and forsake his own basic ethical values as a fellow developer. Doing something just because everyone think it's ok is in fact a step closer to what you characterized as "poor humanity".

I might not be able to do anything about it (for now...), but it's not because of such that I will bury my own values and let things happen, specially in a place where I have the ability to effectively put a brake when needed.
Having that said, I believe in the ability for people to use and be able to recreate things in their own way, that's why I always let all my stuff open source and free to rip from as clearly stated in a ReadMe, but that's my own choice of how to treat my own work, and thus regardless of the age, motive, work or developer behind said work, his terms are the binding rules to use (or not use) such work, and should always be respected as much as possible.

And in a last note: you should take your own advice and try to not to talk in the name of a developer when what he actually wrote in his site directly contradicts your claims.
So here's the deal: until Hourences updates his site and updates the conditions of usage of his textures, what is written there is the *real* set of terms to use them and everyone should still respect them (and they are not hard ones to follow, they're just about 3 lines of dos and don'ts, very simple and straightforward).
If you still think he doesn't mind, feel free to contact him directly to ask him to update his page accordingly, until then things will continue to be as they have always been when it comes to the respect of an author's work as long there's data about that author or at least a ReadMe on the subject stating the conditions clearly.

[Dr.Flay]

Hehe. It is just a mater of dumb timing Jack
It is an old and repetitive topic that will always keep coming back.
This is why we tried to cover it as thoroughly as possible last time, so I suspect Ferali is sick of writing about it.

The main effort here is to try and foster a more professional attitude to observing licensing.
Actually, referring to your comment on the deadness of UT (we are all aware, but we are still "enthusiasts". UT makes an excellent hobby),
personally I feel that it is a good idea to prepare the remaining UT modders for work in other projects.
If they get a real job making games or maps etc. they will have to drop the attitude that any resource will do, or endanger the project they are on.

You are quite correct in pointing out that in the ageing UT99 world, no company or author really gives a damn, as it is not on their radar.
But we still need to always encourage giving credit where credit is due.
It is simply the right and proper thing to do.

[TheDane]

hmm ... as somebody obviously need to turn this topic off-topic and bring back the old ghosts, well, you won't get an argument from my side over that, done is done, I can't change it - YOU can't change it, and to keep bringing it up serves no purpose but to dish me. I don't mind, just know that I don't pay attention to it, so if it makes any of you feel better then please continue to do so

On topic: I decided to bring this post to take any kind of debate towards this fuzz about bla bla rights and all to my own forums to respect the (extremely) odd rules (imo) of these forums. But still you decide to give me your inputs here, so I'll just post for one last time what I want to post HERE about it.

NOBODY who has created a texture that I have on my texture ressource site has contacted me to have it removed nor questioned it. The only time I have heard about issues was when Feralidragon brought it up, he CLAIMES he was asked to do so by another person, but untill that person learns how to speak for him/her self I will continue to host the textures as they are right now. that DOES NOT mean that I won't be changing it in the future in respect of the authors, but since the only ones complaining are not actualy having any textures of their own displayed there, I will not waste time on recoding something that serves it purpose just fine.

[Feralidragon]

[...] The only time I have heard about issues was when Feralidragon brought it up, he CLAIMES he was asked to do so by another person, but untill that person learns how to speak for him/her self I will continue to host the textures as they are right now.. [...]

I just want to mention that said person only brought it up to my attention (along with the wonder why it was being allowed in the first place).
Would have I seen it by myself at first when you opened that topic, the treatment would still be the same, no more and no less.
Said person is perhaps not the owner of any of the textures, but one that respects their authors enough to know what's wrong there. The only reason he didn't spout into public was simply because he didn't know if this was something we (ut99.org staff) were deeming as ok from the start (given the time the topic stayed open) or if it just escaped our eyes, which as a matter of fact was the latter case.

Regardless, I have also said and given all the things that were needed to make you understand why you're in the wrong (including Hourences conditions of usage in his own site), and you didn't care, so I have nothing else to add either, except the obvious "don't post links to your texture site here". You're still free to put links here to other things of your site if they're in conformity of our standing in this kind of issues.

[Carbon]

We still permit links and instructions for the public to learn how to get UT for free on this site. Legal/moral compliance isn't a matter of degree, if that is the argument.

Not taking either side, just saying.

[Feralidragon]

UT demo + v436 no delta patch + bonus packs + drivers and configs = legal (if that's what you mean)

UT can be obtained legally for free for a long long long time, ever since they released the delta patch, furthermore in the case of UT you cannot get an original CD anymore (if you can, please post a link), and all people have is a rather messed up version of it at Steam which doesn't even install the game in the kind of location it's supposed to install (messing it up to an extent, thus not being an entirely good working version of UT).
I think Flay posted some alternatives to Steam though, but I don't know how reliable they are and if they come in the format they should come and patched (but this is something the parties involved can clarify), but regardless, even though we advice people to buy it, given the rarity of the circumstances we can indeed provide legal ways to be able to play it for free.

Also, there are certain countries (like Germany) where this game is even forbidden to be sold there because of weird laws they have, leaving said players (and specially developers) without any way to get it unless they move to another country or unless they use the demo+patch trick.

Furthermore, in the latest iterations of requests of "UT99 Free" people posted links to places where it could be bought (mostly Steam and Flay's alternate sites) or ways to get a free playable version by using the demo and the delta patch or a link to an install which already had all this, which also shows their moral and legal sense on this matter, which matches our own.

Anything beyond that is not ok. If there's a link to a full version not in conformity with this in this forum, please link me up to it, because just like Dane's topic, I may not have noticed it until now.

[papercoffee]

Also, there are certain countries (like Germany) where this game is even forbidden to be sold there because of weird laws they have, leaving said players (and specially developers) without any way to get it unless they move to another country or unless they use the demo+patch trick.

sad but true ...only UT99 is indexed as "Harmful to Young Persons" ...all his successors are free to sell, but to adults only.

Furthermore, in the latest iterations of requests of "UT99 Free" people posted links to places where it could be bought or ways to get a free playable version by using the demo and the delta patch or a link to an install which already had all this.
Anything beyond that is not ok. If there's a link to a full version not in conformity with this in this forum, please link me up to it, because just like Dane's topic, I may not have noticed it until now.

Yes please ...we can't be everywhere. Sometimes has the community point us to things we haven't notice.

[Carbon]

...unless they use the demo+patch trick.

Fair enough, so long as we call it what it is.

Anyhow, sorry to change the focus of the thread.

[Feralidragon]

I must add a note to clarify something however: UT demo + v436 patch != full UT game
By making the UT demo + v436 combo you simply have access to online play, and many mods which otherwise wouldn't work with UT demo alone. All the batch of maps, music, sounds and etc which come exclusively in the full version cannot be obtained this way.
To get the full content of the game, one must pay it, there's no legal way around it, so one can say that actually we do NOT provide any means whatsoever to obtain the full version of UT for free.

[TheDane]

I think it's a grey zone all that demo being able to play online, but Epic don't seem to care if it's illegal. The thing is (and I'm not saying its illegal!), the demo version cannot be patched with the standard 436 patch as I've heard, is that true? I never tried any demo versions myself! .. Also, there is no trace of Epic's release notes from when the no delta patch was released, I'm under the impression that it was released as a patch for those who owned the game and not the demo version? Also, considder the fact that you are not given an EULA when using the demo version, so the things the EULA grants you rights to cannot be transfered to the demo version. So may you even download a custom mod for the full game? The right is granted in the EULA, but I seriously doubt that the EULA covers the demo version.

Now about demo versions, the latest version I can dig up is v348, is that version to be considdered the latest version released by Epic? And if so ... what version is it that Medor constantly flash in his signiature? It say UT v3 and points to an executive file of unknown origin, is that a legal version and is it aproved by Epic since it's an executive? I can't read French?

[rsbloom44]

I think medor's version is just v348+delta and just added extra stuff in there like XConsole. I'm guessing UT 3 is just the revision of the stuff he added in there. He also made his own installer that extracts to a directory if that's what you mean?

[UT99.org]

Dane when we do not know ... we keep his mouth dog closed

If you do not know you demand instead of bullshitting.