New "home"

Discussions about UT99
User avatar
TheDane
Masterful
Posts: 660
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:47 pm
Personal rank: Happy fool :-)

New "home"

Post by TheDane »

With thoughts on yesderdays event where Feralidragon edited my thread about textures and told me his view on what Laws apply to it I have decided to open a little place where these issues can be handled in the future. This way ut99.org will not be the base of what they think is illegal distribution of copyrighted material. I read the EPIC EULA different, and I should be allowed to do so just as Ferali is allowed to edit my post and have his own opinion.

So please, if there are issues, take them to the little forum I've created at my page (I had hoped I didn't have to do that, but I can't control this i see), click on the link in my signiatuere and you'll be right there :tu:

I would like to say that my new forum should NOT be seen as a provocative move towards this site or another site, this is most certainly not my intentions, it's simply just because of different opinions and to make sure that if I am wrong about the copyright issues then ut99.org will not be held responsible if it comes to any law sew or whatever I may face as a result of what I have made public? I would like to warn other developers also, as to if this is correct, those of you who have made voicepacks with sound clips from famous movies would also be in great violation with the copyright law. I host voicepacks too, and will have to think about it carefully if some of them are subjects to be removed, because here my opinion about the copyright law tells me that quoting movies are in violation with the copyright law of the movie makers.

I hope noone gets offended by this post, if so I'm sorry, I'm not angry or trying to talk bad about anyone in any way, it's just my way of dealing with these recent events in the way I think they are handled best. So, see you on my site if you like to chat me personaly ok? :tu:

And please, this is not an invitation to discuss the EULA, I realy don't want to go into that, so I hope you will respect that - I will restrain from debating it from my side further than this post.
Retired.
User avatar
Cronoloop
Skilled
Posts: 223
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:16 am

Re: New "home"

Post by Cronoloop »

You're still a legend in the UT world
I don't know what happened but checking out your new site :tu:
$carface
Skilled
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:58 pm

Re: New "home"

Post by $carface »

Didn't you die??
UT99.org

Re: New "home"

Post by UT99.org »

medor wrote:$carface :loool:
User avatar
Wises
Godlike
Posts: 1089
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:59 am
Personal rank: ...

Re: New "home"

Post by Wises »

$carface wrote:Didn't you die??
I believe it was a Miricle

iirc.. ^
User avatar
EvilGrins
Godlike
Posts: 9689
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:12 pm
Personal rank: God of Fudge
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Contact:

Re: New "home"

Post by EvilGrins »

Just joined your forum, seems pretty dead currently but I'm assuming that's due to it being new... but I love the map section!
Cronoloop wrote:You're still a legend in the UT world
Actually, I'd never heard of him before seeing in this forum.
http://unreal-games.livejournal.com/
Image
medor wrote:Replace Skaarj with EvilGrins :mrgreen:
Smilies · viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13758
User avatar
Dr.Flay
Godlike
Posts: 3347
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:26 pm
Personal rank: Chaos Evangelist
Location: Kernow, UK
Contact:

Re: New "home"

Post by Dr.Flay »

Thankfully you don't seem to take it personally as some do.
We have to remember that even though this is a community site, it is still SHADEs house, with a set of house-rules, and if we have to wipe our feet and hang our coats in the hall, then we behave accordingly.

We have had many in-depth conversations here about legalities, licensing and copyrights (and why a readme is good, even just to say "do what you want").
Just do a search here for "Copyright".
In which you can see that many people have interpreted licensing by focusing on single sentences, and ignoring context. Hence the eternal confusion about the Epic limited licence, so often abused.

Finding authors is not impossible for texture packs when still in their original form (just time consuming), but once textures have been spilt or put into new packs, it can then be almost impossible without credits.
And then there is the common situation of obsolete email and contact details.

This site tries to stay on the site of caution, as the choice is un-winnable.
1) If it allows posting of stolen or unlicensed material, it risks the author starting an argument here, or worse taking legal action. Worse still, many of them just leave the Unreal scene.
2) but If it does not allow posting of untraceable or uncreditable material, then it risks members arguing and leaving the site.

Either way someone loses-out.
However, I prefer to look at this amateur site, for amateur developers, as a first introduction to many developers, in how they will need to behave professionally, if they decide to take or make money on a project.
eg. get a job doing what you love.

In the past, I have had to break the news to staff that we could not use their project no matter how many hours went into it, because they used some images they grabbed from search engines.
My personal site has images and animGifs from other sites I used without permission. However as I link to the original source, the only author that has complained is happy to let it stay.
Spoiler
My thoughts....
When it comes to old abandon-ware, there is no-doubt you are doing a good thing.
But when it comes to re-hosting work by an author such as Hourences, or any author that is still around and still hosting the original files, I think you are doing them a dis-service by not sending visitors to them, or mirroring their files in the same form you got them in.

I have noticed a change in attitude over the years in the way we share our stuff online.
Once upon a time, we supported each-other by linking to the source of our inspiration or material.
Then we then got used to visiting 1 mega-site for everything, as sites like PlanetQuake became big. People were even dumb enough to rely on sites like this (and still do), to provide all their project and clan hosting needs.
Since then many community members have tried to host a massive database of files (UT-Files is a good example), and we get used to the convenience again. They then become far more important than just convenient.
Until it is gone.
No-one plans to let everybody down, but sh*t happens, and this game has been around a lot longer than anyone planned for.

By then no one has any idea where the original sites were, and often they are long gone, as who keeps on hosting a site with few visitors and no feedback.
I actually got a very happy email back from the owner of an old (and still going) texture site, that specialises in hosting dead projects.
Even though I was sending a list of broken links, they were just happy someone was actually using the site, rather than just ripping the contents for their own site.

Having an important service that people start with is great, but it does not have to be where a visitor ends their quest.
The Dane's mega texture resource could easily be a gateway to an even bigger world of textures, tutorials and tools.
eg. Your database could still contain the thumbnails, but send a user to Hourences texture pages etc.
1) This saves you a little work and bandwidth.
2) This bypasses any issues of licence.
3) Stops the needless duplication of resources.
4) Often earns you a return link from their site.
5) Often gains you a new friend.

I have contacted several ex-developers that have all had open attitudes with their work, so there has never been a proper base-distro. This made it hard to first find who made it, and if they had made any more.
The deco packs by William Sherriff, bobkakabk and GiGGsy are a good example. individually handed around over the years without a please or thank-you, like a child at a pedo's party :nonono:
The William Sherriff collection is now all complete and all available again, only because I bothered to look for this William Sherriff person , and discovered he had made far more packs than I first knew about.
Each of the new downloads I provide contain some info on William Sherriff, some example images and a copy of the old Spooger page where his work was originally hosted.
The same goes for the other authors I found.
Far more work went into hunting all the files than most people would do, but I enjoy the detective work.

However :( There are many other files I have that are worth sharing, but will not until I know I have the right to, as I do not have a "distro".
I may not need any permission, but I cannot, and will not assume that, until I have read something that says so.
That is why I never share cache-ripped content until it can be a full distro again. I can then include the original permission of "do what you want" so the next person actually knows what they are allowed to do.

If the best you can do is credit the maps that the resource is known to be used in, especially with old stuff, that is as much as you can do :noidea
I am not so dumb as to expect anyone to be able to tag your entire collection, but think of it like this;
If an unknown texture stands-out, and there is also a good map that you know it is used in, why not list it as an example anyway?
The best way to check a texture is to see it in use (and the maps you make would be a good start :wink: ).

We do make every effort to promote free resources, but also every effort to make sure that in another 10 years, this site is still going (maybe) :wink:
Creavion started the ball rolling on a thread for "Textures for (non)commercial usage" aimed at a more professional attitude (and hi-res textures).
http://www.ut99.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4683
We followed his lead by starting the same for (non)commercial audio.
http://www.ut99.org/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=4745
Ask yourself how you imagine your texture database to be 10 years from now, then continue towards that.
We all want your site to be there for us to use on upcoming projects, so don't risk a cease and desist order or threats from an author.
User avatar
Wormbo
Adept
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:04 pm
Contact:

Re: New "home"

Post by Wormbo »

$carface wrote:Didn't you die??
No, he only suffered non-fatal attention whoring.
User avatar
UTPe
Masterful
Posts: 583
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:10 pm
Personal rank: Dude
Location: Trieste, Italy
Contact:

Re: New "home"

Post by UTPe »

TheDane wrote: those of you who have made voicepacks with sound clips from famous movies would also be in great violation with the copyright law
I did it :what: ...but...

Image


(anyway, thanks for your work)
Personal map database: http://www.ut99maps.net

"These are the days that we will return to one day in the future only in memories." (The Midnight)
User avatar
papercoffee
Godlike
Posts: 10447
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:36 am
Personal rank: coffee addicted !!!
Location: Cologne, the city with the big cathedral.
Contact:

Re: New "home"

Post by papercoffee »

UTPe wrote:
TheDane wrote: those of you who have made voicepacks with sound clips from famous movies would also be in great violation with the copyright law
I did it :what: ...but...

(anyway, thanks for your work)
Audio files from movies are more Fair Use because you always named the source
"this is the voice pack from Star Wars - the bartender from Tatooine ...enjoy!!"
But their is a huge difference between taking sound snips or hosting the whole movie.


...I feel so bad that I only took a glimpse at your texture page and didn't notice the well known one.
User avatar
Chamberly
Godlike
Posts: 1963
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:32 pm
Personal rank: Dame. Vandora
Location: TN, USA
Contact:

Re: New "home"

Post by Chamberly »

*Sarcastic* I spoke a lot of badddd things in UT games! */Sarcastic*

I thought there is nothing wrong using voice packs in UT or whatever. :)
User avatar
Dr.Flay
Godlike
Posts: 3347
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:26 pm
Personal rank: Chaos Evangelist
Location: Kernow, UK
Contact:

Re: New "home"

Post by Dr.Flay »

A voice-pack is not really the same.
Using clips of audio, only "references" the original.
If you re-hosted the entire sound-tracks to the films you cut clips from, you would get a cease and desist order.

To be the same as a voice-pack, you would use small sections of several textures to make a new one.
Thereby making it your original work.
User avatar
papercoffee
Godlike
Posts: 10447
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:36 am
Personal rank: coffee addicted !!!
Location: Cologne, the city with the big cathedral.
Contact:

Re: New "home"

Post by papercoffee »

Dr.Flay wrote: To be the same as a voice-pack, you would use small sections of several textures to make a new one.
Thereby making it your original work.
Exactly!
User avatar
Feralidragon
Godlike
Posts: 5493
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:24 pm
Personal rank: Work In Progress
Location: Liandri

Re: New "home"

Post by Feralidragon »

Fair use: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
However the concept of "Fair Use" is only truly solidified in the USA (as well as most copyright laws), in other countries they may have some differences or no concept of fair use at all.

Regardless, fair use is quite broad when it comes non-commercial stuff, but it's important to know where the boundaries are located, and generally those boundaries are mostly on how much of the work you use and for which exact purpose (either it's sound fx, music, video or others).
I am not exactly sure where the "voicepack" is located under those rules tbh, but I think fair use covers it to an extent (since I think of them as "parody sound boards", generally used in videos or other content for parody, and parody products are fully covered by fair use).

Custom music however is not covered since people generally use it in full, and for that rights would need to be paid. If only a portion of the music is used, then it's tricky to decide when fair use applies in some situations (depending on the product itself and its purpose).

As for textures, well, it's also tricky. When it comes to textures, it depends mostly if you are using a unique trait found in that particular texture alone and call it your own, or if the texture is too generic to anyone to prove it's from X or Y (take for instance a "texture" that is simply a 256x256 full solid red, no one can even dare to copyright it, it's too generic to even be considered any kind of copyright protected material).
Comparing to coding terms, it's like trying to copyright the line of code "if (foo == bar)", even if the one who used it the first time is X, he doesn't hold any copyright over it.
Having that said, low resolution textures are harder to identify rather than high resolution ones, hence the posts above talking about "small texture sections", which are tricky to decide when they're ok (which once again gets back to the problem of having too of a unique artistic trait to be able to be copyrighted at all), so generally the safe zone is just using textures which license lets you do your own modifications.

I recommend everyone to read a bit on the copyright stuff, the existing licenses, and even take Dane's advice and read the UT EULA yourselves.
Once I read it thoughtfully long ago, I realized for example that some of the stuff people deemed as ok and which I (along others) followed, in reality they're not ok at all as I reflected a while ago here in the forum (for example, in the usage of other UT games assets).
Luckily, Epic doesn't seem to care much about it as long as the assets are used in at least one of the existing UT games, and in the case of U2, it belongs to Epic again afaik after the downfall of its original studio, so U2 is kinda an orphan Epic took back in, and they would probably rectify the EULA again if it wasn't too troublesome to do for them (due to all the costs with laywers and legal bindings when doing so).

There are also some other misconceptions on the EULA, one of which some people use as an excuse to steal stuff from other developers, which I also covered a while ago.
So yeah people, read the EULA, line by line, and keep in mind that as any terms or even the law itself, they exist in layers: you have the constitution, then the law which cannot violate the constitution, then terms, rules and licenses which cannot violate the law (but which can override it to an extent), and whenever one of the deeper layers does not cover something from the upper layer, the upper layer is the one to be applied (just like object oriented programming lol).
JackGriffin
Godlike
Posts: 3774
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:53 pm
Personal rank: -Retired-

Re: New "home"

Post by JackGriffin »

Wow, gone for a good bit. Come back and it's virtually the same discussions with the same people about the same things.

I"ll speak from the rather unique perspective of a former insider who is now an outsider. Maybe it's germane, I dunno.

First off who really cares if ELA's are broken? There's like 7 people still making anything resembling useful with another 40 or so worldwide playing the stuff being made. I know, I know "gametracker says..." :eyeroll: The truth is the people left are the ones who simply find comfort in this ancient game because it's simple and fun and reminds them of younger times.

You guys ought to argue less and play/create more. Until Hourences posts up that he's upset no one ought to be speaking for him about any matter. He was always great with me and my money is on him blessing his work being used in any fashion, repackage or not, but that's for him to say.

I see the personal attacks continue still...that's really sad too. We've all made mistakes and done dumb stuff. What's dumber is to slap someone in the face with it years after the fact to publicly shame them (and no other reason). I cried real tears when I thought Jacob had died but I also laughed when I he contacted me again. It's over, we renewed our friendship, and life moves on. It's toxic to dwell on past misdeeds and who doesn't have them? Stop trotting out other people's errors, it's poor humanity.

Anyway just thought I'd toss out my opinion FWIW.
So long, and thanks for all the fish
Post Reply