Carmac interview talking about newnet?

Discussions about UT99
Post Reply
rsbloom44
Experienced
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:46 am

Carmac interview talking about newnet?

Post by rsbloom44 »

http://www.ongamers.com/articles/reflec ... /1100-976/
5:50

He talks about Quake vs UT and how nowadays UT is point and click and very "instagibby", I'm assuming he is talking about newnet right?
Tim-_-
Average
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:18 am

Re: Carmac interview talking about newnet?

Post by Tim-_- »

Carmac knew UT pretty well 10+ years ago, but he's really out of touch with the current state of things, and the current state of things is why I've developed the mod. He apparently thinks things like low tickrates and leading shots are the way for this 15 year old game to thrive in the future, and then he proceeds to call me an idiot. He should probably take a closer look at himself and the state of UT99 in the year 2014.

I'll quote my post on GU's forums:
TimTim wrote:Carmac actually outlines the main thing holding NW back: people get set in their ways and become unable to move forward. I've seen many weapons players who've developed an elitist mindset such that you should have to aim ahead of every shot depending on your ping, only because that's how they learned to play many years ago. And I'll admit that once upon a time, I had this same elitist outlook. I still find myself aiming ahead of players because I spent thousands of hours practicing this. But this same elitist mindset is part of the reason the NW community has dwindled down to under 50 elitist players. (50 is a generous number. Half are fairly inactive. See sLY's ladder, which lasted for a week or two.)

But it eventually became clear that for the game to have a chance at some kind of future, it's going to have to join the modern "point-and-click" style of gaming. Could you imagine some young whipper snapper nowadays trying out UT's old netcode and having someone tell him, "You have a high ping so you have to aim really far ahead." It would make zero sense to anyone used to any first person shooter made within the last few years.
ShaiHulud
Adept
Posts: 459
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:37 am

Re: Carmac interview talking about newnet?

Post by ShaiHulud »

Are you sure he was referencing NewNet? Admittedly I don't know who he is (when I read "Carmac" I actually thought this was going to be an interview with ID guru John Carmack!), but I got the impression that he hasn't involved himself much directly with UT in the very recent past, so I'd be a bit surprised if he knew about it. I thought he might have been talking about things like NoLockdown and FastWeaponSwitch
maximdymok
Experienced
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 5:28 am

Re: Carmac interview talking about newnet?

Post by maximdymok »

Well, I don't really see what he is complaining about anyway.. UT without NN and with <80 pings is "instagibby" anyway. The slowed down sniper and less powerful minigun in NN balance things pretty well.
User avatar
Feralidragon
Godlike
Posts: 5489
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:24 pm
Personal rank: Work In Progress
Location: Liandri

Re: Carmac interview talking about newnet?

Post by Feralidragon »

Well, he didn't specify who or what he was specifically talking about. Maybe it wasn't NewNet but rather ZP which has the same exact effect in game play when it comes to "point and click", and ZP has been around for years and is still a lot more widespread than NewNet (specially considering that it still didn't make its official public debut).

Regardless though, it's a pretty idiot comment on calling whoever he was talking about an "idiot". Not everyone likes ZP or NewNet, that's a fact and everyone has their right to their own opinions, however it's not like anyone is forced to play under either mods (specially NewNet since it's not even officially released to boot). Even nowadays, with a few bucks anyone can setup a vanilla UT server without any mods in plenty of game server providers, and have fun like in the good old days without those "idiot" fixes he claimed to have hindered the game.
One can even do it pretty much for free by setting a dedicated server from home or any other place as well.

Anyway, I don't think anyone should consider the opinion of any "pro" or elitist player. UT is a game and thus is supposed to provide pure entertainment, and not be seen as a profession.
User avatar
Hellkeeper
Inhuman
Posts: 903
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:32 pm
Personal rank: Soulless Automaton
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Carmac interview talking about newnet?

Post by Hellkeeper »

Feralidragon wrote:Anyway, I don't think anyone should consider the opinion of any "pro" or elitist player. UT is a game and thus is supposed to provide pure entertainment, and not be seen as a profession.
Just like we shouldn't consider the opinion of "pro" or elitist footballers because football is a game and thus supposed to provide entertainment.

I agree with you in that his status doesn't make him the voice of Truth about the game, but entirely disregarding the "pros" is not the solution either.
You must construct additional pylons.
User avatar
Feralidragon
Godlike
Posts: 5489
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:24 pm
Personal rank: Work In Progress
Location: Liandri

Re: Carmac interview talking about newnet?

Post by Feralidragon »

Maybe I expressed myself wrong. I didn't mean to totally disregard it, what I meant is to not take it as "the" way to play the game or what to do with it, if it's more clear that way.
The vast majority of the so called "pro" players dislike change because all their training and even their "high status" is lost with some changes to the game that totally transform it for them and invert the skill set balance from a kind of players to another kind of players (if that makes any sense).
Hence their sense of whatever changes the game is "idiotic" in their opinion, since they give them a different level of gameplay, which they can't adapt to since their skills no longer match the new environment making them simply "normal" players instead, and thus their opinions are often a lot less valuable than one of a player that is more flexible and enjoys the overall game more rather than looking at it as a "sacred unchangeable temple", if you understand what I mean.

Also, comparing normal sports with e-sports it's comparing oranges with apples, they cannot relate at all in this sense (you can't change the lag or the physics of real sports, they're "reality" bound whereas e-sports are only bound by whatever goes in your mind, hand motor skills and reflexes).
User avatar
Hellkeeper
Inhuman
Posts: 903
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:32 pm
Personal rank: Soulless Automaton
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Carmac interview talking about newnet?

Post by Hellkeeper »

Feralidragon wrote:Maybe I expressed myself wrong. I didn't mean to totally disregard it, what I meant is to not take it as "the" way to play the game or what to do with it, if it's more clear that way.
The vast majority of the so called "pro" players dislike change because all their training and even their "high status" is lost with some changes to the game that totally transform it for them and invert the skill set balance from a kind of players to another kind of players (if that makes any sense).
Hence their sense of whatever changes the game is "idiotic" in their opinion, since they give them a different level of gameplay, which they can't adapt to since their skills no longer match the new environment making them simply "normal" players instead, and thus their opinions are often a lot less valuable than one of a player that is more flexible and enjoys the overall game more rather than looking at it as a "sacred unchangeable temple", if you understand what I mean.
Nice clarification, I agree 100%.
Feralidragon wrote:Also, comparing normal sports with e-sports it's comparing oranges with apples, they cannot relate at all in this sense (you can't change the lag or the physics of real sports, they're "reality" bound whereas e-sports are only bound by whatever goes in your mind, hand motor skills and reflexes).
I was making the comparison for regarding the gap between the "normal fun" and "serious business" ways to play, because this disconnect exists in both cases :wink:
You must construct additional pylons.
UT99.org

Re: Carmac interview talking about newnet?

Post by UT99.org »

billybill wrote:The guy was pretty honest on his thoughts about ZP. Both his support of double elimination and the example he gave of the 6 stacked rockets kill said alot. This guy seems to know some of the better players, and sounds like he was into UT in particular (all this reminds me of myself). I don't think I disagreed with anything he said. Except maybe he wasn't clear about whether he was into the lan or internet play, his 'now it's point and click' type comments lead me to believe it was internet. Keep in mind the game came out when everyone has a 170-200ms dialup ping and as timtim mentioned the tickrate was low, you would get away with sliding between rockets coming at you and you could still get away while someone was taking pot shots at your head at perfect aim, yes they would have to aim ahead. There is no question here about how many people like the drastic changes that can't be answered by how many people still use the service. You admit it's ut2004 for UT. In my years the pros who went from UT to UT2003/4 were right back at UT99 for a while 2005-2006 as if the game dropped off the map. It was obvious which game they liked best the game where skill won and not some up and comer who a better wouldn't gamble money on. I'm actually tired and will end what I'm saying here. Don't take what he said personally TimTim, I doubt he even knows who you are
rsbloom44
Experienced
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:46 am

Re: Carmac interview talking about newnet?

Post by rsbloom44 »

Feralidragon wrote:Well, he didn't specify who or what he was specifically talking about. Maybe it wasn't NewNet but rather ZP which has the same exact effect in game play when it comes to "point and click", and ZP has been around for years and is still a lot more widespread than NewNet (specially considering that it still didn't make its official public debut).

Regardless though, it's a pretty idiot comment on calling whoever he was talking about an "idiot". Not everyone likes ZP or NewNet, that's a fact and everyone has their right to their own opinions, however it's not like anyone is forced to play under either mods (specially NewNet since it's not even officially released to boot). Even nowadays, with a few bucks anyone can setup a vanilla UT server without any mods in plenty of game server providers, and have fun like in the good old days without those "idiot" fixes he claimed to have hindered the game.
One can even do it pretty much for free by setting a dedicated server from home or any other place as well.

Anyway, I don't think anyone should consider the opinion of any "pro" or elitist player. UT is a game and thus is supposed to provide pure entertainment, and not be seen as a profession.
The reason I think he was talking about NN is because AFIAK and I could very well be wrong, ZP doesn't alter weapon damage or the way sniper shots come out. The only thing noticeable that ZP did was allow crouching head shots. I do agree with you though, you don't have to use ZP or NN, and infact I think for dueling purposes IMO you shouldn't really use any lag compensation mods. I do think NN and ZP is the best thing to happen for public servers. People from everywhere get to enjoy the game online. It's probably one of the reasons UT multiplayer has stayed alive.
User avatar
Hellkeeper
Inhuman
Posts: 903
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:32 pm
Personal rank: Soulless Automaton
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Carmac interview talking about newnet?

Post by Hellkeeper »

rsbloom44 wrote:I do think NN and ZP is the best thing to happen for public servers. People from everywhere get to enjoy the game online. It's probably one of the reasons UT multiplayer has stayed alive.
Yay, UT's staying alive!
Good luck thinking about something else for the next three weeks.
You must construct additional pylons.
User avatar
Wises
Godlike
Posts: 1089
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:59 am
Personal rank: ...

Re: Carmac interview talking about newnet?

Post by Wises »

zp and nn definately helped keep the game alive.

However re: zp , once crat0s left.. zp's cracks opened to the point where people were left guessing.. is he cheating?.. or .

Someone over at ua.org appears to be lookig into it.. nighthawk.. i think. But what hes going to do idk.

Nn is truely amazing and the percentile of players that complain about lag are <5% which is amazing in itself.

Goto gametracker .. search for newnet (ut servers).. then connect to any of them irrelavent of ping and judge for your self.

Yes there are a few bugs.. but they are being rectified.. and do not cause ecen 10% of the problens experienced in any other mod..
ASLY

Re: Carmac interview talking about newnet?

Post by ASLY »

First off all, I never heard that guy name I don't know who is that, and I don't care about the game pro UT other side.
I mean I'm just playing for fun, and I don't really know who is who, and I don't know what happening in the UT communitys like GlubalUnreal/ProUnreal ... ? etc.
Why? Just because I have too much To-Do list / Real Life and I don't want to be a lifeless people who is playing with UT in every day.
I have a part of my life when I depressed, and in this time I learned a lot thing about the game. And I'm just wanted to play better and better.
I played 1v1 games (NW) the most time, sometimes I played pickup games (Insta) but that's all. And I think, just in this gametype you really need your skill in 1v1.
In this time a give for UT a lot time and I'm trying to learning everything just what I can about the game.
Aiming, Weapons tactic, Moving practice, Map tactics, etc.
Carmac very well said that, if you learn everything in the game, you will like the game much better. Just because you can "control everything".
And you can feel the game much better and you enjoy it more than like a newbie player.
About the NewNet, I don't really understand why he is nervous about this. This is a fantastic thing!
With this mod easily can play USA and EU players "pro" instagib. (Simple)
And with this mod UT players can play from everywhere with a better ping for a better gameplay.
So the NewNet I think it's good for public servers but just for insta and for combogib.
In the ZP|COMBOINSTAGIB server there is NewNet and there is NW mod.
But Natur Weapon game with NewNet still hard, It's not laggy just there is some second difference when you shot and hit. So I don't know what about talking this guy.
Instagibby the NewNet? Please. Almost every weapon is instagibbyin the UT. Wich ones?
Bio full sludge, Shock combo, Ripper headshot, Flak first projectile (Close, if you don't have belt), Flak sludge, 1 Rocket hit (If you don't have belt), 6 Rocket...
No comment! and the Sniper rifle 1 bullet headshot or 2 bullet with belt, and the Impact Hammer. So what about we are talking?
You just need a lot time for practicing the weapons tactics, how it's really usable.
So a "pro" player needs to know how use every weapon. But the lamest weapons are Shock/Rocket/Sniper.
Most pro player just use this three weapon. Just a simple, Deck16][. These weapons are twice in that map. What do you think guys, why?
Or would be more equal if somebody using a low weapon I swtich my weapon too a low weapon.
So the game will be not really "instagibby" if I just use all the time just the same weapons with the same tactic.
There is one thing what I don't understand what he means with standard UT gameplay. ZP? Or what?
The NewNet is awesome, like I said I can play better in the ZP|COMBOINSTAGIB server which is an USA server.
That is good for public servers and maybe that's a new thing what us keep alive the game.
I think ZP and NN is helped to keep alive UT. And about the gameplay, you need skill and good aiming and know how use the weapons and know the maps, thats all.
Tim-_-
Average
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:18 am

Re: Carmac interview talking about newnet?

Post by Tim-_- »

Feralidragon wrote:Anyway, I don't think anyone should consider the opinion of any "pro" or elitist player. UT is a game and thus is supposed to provide pure entertainment, and not be seen as a profession.
Ferali gets it!
Hellkeeper wrote:
Feralidragon wrote:Maybe I expressed myself wrong. I didn't mean to totally disregard it, what I meant is to not take it as "the" way to play the game or what to do with it, if it's more clear that way.
The vast majority of the so called "pro" players dislike change because all their training and even their "high status" is lost with some changes to the game that totally transform it for them and invert the skill set balance from a kind of players to another kind of players (if that makes any sense).
Hence their sense of whatever changes the game is "idiotic" in their opinion, since they give them a different level of gameplay, which they can't adapt to since their skills no longer match the new environment making them simply "normal" players instead, and thus their opinions are often a lot less valuable than one of a player that is more flexible and enjoys the overall game more rather than looking at it as a "sacred unchangeable temple", if you understand what I mean.
Nice clarification, I agree 100%.
This too! Spot on.

@Everyone else, thanks for the kind words.
UT99.org

Re: Carmac interview talking about newnet?

Post by UT99.org »

billybill wrote:
Feralidragon wrote:Anyway, I don't think anyone should consider the opinion of any "pro" or elitist player. UT is a game and thus is supposed to provide pure entertainment, and not be seen as a profession.
Aww even someone as funny as this? Not only a pro gamer but good e-sports commentator and makes a good actor. Have to admit I laughed my ass off during the entire thing

[youtube]tRP95EpzOXc[/youtube]

@TimTim- They can't say anything until a real release. Like you admit, you'll never impress those who are true old school players. There is a huge difference in using experience to make decisions in play, doing the same proven methods over and over because they and tried and proven, and being opportunistic, careless, reckless like the modern player who has two years experience with the game. With no disrespect to them I sense a lot of those who are calling votes on changes are the latter

You could either have options for admins to enable or disable any features. Or even as you plan to, release the source and let them take what they want for their servers and give you credit

Each league or set of servers at the end of the day would be for players who like those settings, each tournament whatever the organisers decide works best.

You don't HAVE to cater for elitest or traditionalists or whatever. I'm trying to say when they have the choice like that there will be credit given instead of thinking you are changing gamebreaking parts of the play. NewNet is still lightyears ahead of the zero ping crap and you fixed a bunch of bugs. Before you came along, the pro scene consisted of zero ping and CB cup mutator right? Now THAT is a huge accomplishment what you've done, a major improvement. Only thing they had going for them was the clanbase fall cup tickrate independent weapons which could be argued were severely changed themselves. I'm sure they removed weapon lockdown to make up for lower pings which in turn made them much different.

I don't see how anyone can make the argument that zero ping is better than lag compensation even if we prefer neither, even if we prefer the old ways. You'll have to excuse me if I'm repeating or better off posting this somewhere else. You did mention you would consider changing to make them have to shoot ahead. If Carmac was right, and I am of this view too, there can't be many of us because there would already be an established old UTer community where all players launch from an IRC client like you guys do, but the -pktlag= commandline automated by mIRC or whatever to all launch all with an aligned, high delay. And it wouldn't be hard to set all this up and put it in action if there was an actual demand for it
Post Reply