Terms of Service for the 333networks Master Server

[noccer]

Any chance that this topic can be pruned to the usefull things?

[papercoffee]

Any chance that this topic can be pruned to the usefull things?

Was? ...I mean. what?

[noccer]

Das Forum um a little bit Einträge zu shorten

[papercoffee]

Das Forum um a little bit Einträge zu shorten

What a nice Denglish you have...
If Darkelarious want this to happen can we arrange something (he opened the thread) ...but we don't like to delete posts, even if they are bootless.

[UT99.org]

I'd actually like a MS that I could switch to that filters all the fake player servers. As long as switching back and forwards is easy to do. There was another thread here about servers changing favorite servers on the client, that is a no no by anyone's book, I mean where do you draw the line. If they are moving servers they shouldn't have to delete your old favorite entry and add a new one. And what dane is saying should apply to anyone starting a master servers, generally accepted guidelines set by the community. If you connect to a UT server and then find your UT.ini modified where you have different master servers and a no longer Epic MS then these servers should be removed from the list and shunned by the community as well IMO. I'll point to the latest posts at runegame.com forum as an example of that

[noccer]

I'd actually like a MS that I could switch to that filters all the fake player servers. As long as switching back and forwards is easy to do. There was another thread here about servers changing favorite servers on the client, that is a no no by anyone's book, I mean where do you draw the line. If they are moving servers they shouldn't have to delete your old favorite entry and add a new one. And what dane is saying should apply to anyone starting a master servers, generally accepted guidelines set by the community. If you connect to a UT server and then find your UT.ini modified where you have different master servers and a no longer Epic MS then these servers should be removed from the list and shunned by the community as well IMO. I'll point to the latest posts at runegame.com forum as an example of that

The player has to do the master server entries by himself, the master server can not do this because it cannot write to your .ini. That is why it also can't give you a on/off switch for fake servers. You would need an addon or "hotfix" for this, or at least some workaround by both, MS and player.
Everyone agrees to the point that no one may alter players masterserver entries without explicit agreement to all changes. The same goes for the favourite list (exception: abusive shithead admins won't agree).

[Darkelarious]

Right now, everybody gets the full server list and the full server list only. There are only 3 filtered addresses on the 333networks site, to be known "192.168.*.*", "127.0.0.*", "10.0.*.*", which are all local network addresses (for obvious reasons -- I don't want them to enlist double/triple in the 333nw list).

As said before, admins of their own servers can email about getting their own server removed/blacklisted, but I have not had such requests so far. I first want to write a page on 333nw that shows a list of blacklisted addresses, and a clear system on what is needed to dispute being on that list.

I would also like to point out, that even though it might in the end be necessary that servers update their clients with the new master list, I strongly oppose automatic updating or enforcing of a new master list WITHOUT the consent of the player. I believe there should ALWAYS be a cancel button in such mods/options.

Perhaps that is also something important to add to the ToS: a server may NEVER enforce the master list without the explicit permission of the user.

[Dr.Flay]

I'd like to thank you billybill for continuing to contribute to this whole subject.
Being in the sceptic role, makes you a great sounding-board for the potential harm and mayhem that may be caused by abuse of the system.

BTW. I will point out that a master can send the details of another master to UT and update the ini.
This is how Gamespy send the new master info to UT users. I'm not sure if UT removes non-responding masters at that point, or just adds a new one, or replaces them all.
I do know that after GS shutdown all new UT installs will require manual update to use the new Epic master and alternatives.
As far as I know the 333master does not currently send new master info in this way. You could only allow this behaviour if you were the licence-holder of the game, or on behalf of them.

Switching back and forth, especially for debugging it makes sense. As we are currently doing a lot of it !
How to do this easily seems another problem, as this is all internal to UT.
The only solution I see is to re-prioritise your MS entries, and make sure Fallback mode is enabled.
Your only local options are one at a time in fallback mode, or all at the same time with fallback off.
Well all the normal info is editable within the engine, so a Umenu item could perhaps give a serviceable GUI.
You can access most of it via the advanced UT prefs. All you can do though is change the options you already have access to.

As billybill points out, adding new favourites could enable servers to bypass de-listing or filtering, or to deposit the player on a completely unknown off-the-grid server.
I think the control of this is beyond a traditional masterserver.
I also think if filtering is only to hide false results, rather than the server, there are less unknowns, but it can't stop it.

Theoretically there will be no isolated unknown dangerous masters, but we can't rule that out yet.
I have been contemplating another aspect that the MS system may need to have regarding long-term functionality.
Handling of that is very sensitive and I will have to talk directly with people. I have already raised it with Darkelarious, and will happily discuss in private.

For now we just give our suggestions for what we would like the ToS to cover.
Once Dark has had a few days break he will be fresh to go through this thread.
He asked if I could help with the writing of the ToS, but as many of you may be aware, I am more of a story-writer and poet (mostly involving poo and arse jokes).

A document of this nature needs the hand of someone still used to dealing inside the corporate beast, and I left the boardroom many years ago.
I would rather trust my accountant and business adviser with finalising it, but I think possibly due to the familiarity of this business, that Feralidragon may be the perfect candidate to examine the proposed ToS.
An outside agent is the only way to ensure unbiased and non-politicised agreement.
I am quite sure Anything Ferali feels is missing or wrong will be posted anyway, as legal issues rarely escape his eye.
We may all be a bunch of amateurs working on an amateur project, but we try to be as business-like and responsible to all parties as possible.

Anyway my suggestion for something in the ToS, is the topic of piracy.
333networks master and downloadable versions are forbidden to be used as an aid to piracy, or to be hosted on any site also hosting pirate material.
333networks will not be held liable for changing of the original code as an aid to bypass game protection.

[TheDane]

Right now, everybody gets the full server list and the full server list only.

I hate to see how everyone avoids to answer my direct questions towards the clients privacy, so let me try and be more specific. It's not only about what goes down to the client, but also what goes "up" to the master server.

The TOS should include a full description of what data the client is sending to the master server. Will the master server be putting the player into a database and keep track of the clients traffic on various servers etc. This is privacy, what does the master server do in concern to these matters?

Then a client can monitor the network traffic by a tool that logs each and every single package and see if there are servers violating from the TOS.

[Darkelarious]

Right now, everybody gets the full server list and the full server list only.

I hate to see how everyone avoids to answer my direct questions towards the clients privacy, so let me try and be more specific. It's not only about what goes down to the client, but also what goes "up" to the master server.

The TOS should include a full description of what data the client is sending to the master server. Will the master server be putting the player into a database and keep track of the clients traffic on various servers etc. This is privacy, what does the master server do in concern to these matters?

Then a client can monitor the network traffic by a tool that logs each and every single package and see if there are servers violating from the TOS.

As far as I'm concerned, the ToS are not a technical manual. You are referring to technical aspects here; aspects that I answered before and documented in http://git.333networks.com/MasterServer ... on/doc.pdf. The reason why the document is still not updated, is because the amount of requests rise exponentially to what I can finish in that same time. The very same material is also covered on http://www.oldunreal.com/wiki/index.php ... nreal_v1.0. I trust that this information is enough to answer your concerns.

The request for a ToS is an opportunity for the community. If I were a dork, asshole, Hitler or whatever people call me these days, there would be one single line in that ToS: "You don't have any right, and I have all". As Dr.Flay pointed out, we all need each other's expertise on this. I hope that many of you will want to help with turning these notes from a few posts ago into a "real" ToS which is readable and of satisfactory quality.

May I suggest the following strategy? Whomever feels that he/she is up to the task, types one or two paragraphs with the structure and content from previous posts. If you put it in "code" tags, I will incrementally post these paragraphs/blocks until we all agree that the ToS is complete.

[TheDane]

The request for a ToS is an opportunity for the community. If I were a dork, asshole, Hitler or whatever people call me these days, there would be one single line in that ToS: "You don't have any right, and I have all".

So in short you wont give the client any guarantees that you wont be collecting any information from them. Thats ok, it's your project and you can do whatever you like as long as you stay within the frames of the EULA I guess. I can just say that my personal opinion is that I will not dare to open a datalink to a private PC running a master server if I cannot get a written guarantee about privacy.

IMO you should include this:

333 Networks will NOT gather any informations about you or your actions such as tracking your IP address and the servers you visit, but not limited to that - we will NOT monitor any clients, nor will 333 Networks pass on any information to 3rd party services. 333 Networks will fully live up the the EPIC EULA regarding rules of personal data and online behavior. 333 Network will provide you with a master server that will only send you with a list of game servers known within the 333 Networks master server database.

[noccer]

I can just say that my personal opinion is that I will not dare to open a datalink to a private PC running a master server if I cannot get a written guarantee about privacy.

I wonder if you only play single player games because i don't know that any ut server admin gives you a warranty about privacy.

[UT99.org]

I do not expect privacy guarantee if I play on public servers.

Darkelarious keep the power and thank you for all of us.

[UT99.org]

Wait, what personal info are you talking about. You couldn't be talking about each time someone looks up the master server? All one would have to do is put a server in the list and record each time it is queried for exactly the same stat to be recorded. Although he does state on the site they *do* collect info and it's kept anonymous. An ip address holds no value to anyone financially, he can't blackmail you over it, at present he doesn't probe ips unless they uplink to any master server. Back in the day servers would display the ip address of all players so cheaters were easier to report. If you want privacy from tracking in UT you are a bit late, ACE has done more than enough in that regard. Sorry to say

[papercoffee]

I can just say that my personal opinion is that I will not dare to open a datalink to a private PC running a master server if I cannot get a written guarantee about privacy.

I wonder if you only play single player games because i don't know that any ut server admin gives you a warranty about privacy.

Where is the warranty about privacy from Epic?
Epic's Masterserver is also private and not government-run.