Which anti-cheat is up to date ?

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Which anti-cheat is up to date ?

Postby TruthAlwaysEmerges » Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:02 am

First to say that I have very limited number of servers when can play UT99. Mostly German ones, or in near. I'm not in Germany, but ISP is Deutsche Telekom - what could be topic for another thread .. Something is wrong with ping value detected and shown - lag on many servers is much bigger. Actually, what you see after first listing of favorite servers is closest to real lag. Pressing F5 multiple times will result in showing much smaller pings. I don't know why it is - maybe because Telekom multiplexes users/lines with low frequency ?

So, situation is that cheaters practically overtook some servers. There is no admin on Mukum DM/fun server, anti-cheat is outdated. Italian kiddie (he claims that has 16 years) cheats heavily - and that's not only my opinion. Actually, he was banned from some servers after being detected with latest ACE.
But he is just one of many cheaters. Typical situation is: you connect to some server, where 1-2 players are listed - then it may happen that it is fake info, and will see just bot(s) . You play little, then some real player jumps in. And starts to demolish you. What ? Yes, cheater waited behind corner for victim !
You go other server - same shit ! You go populated server - cheaters inevitable. They took over Planet ! Game Over !
Someone will say that I'm stupid noob. I'm everything else. Actually, I'm good experienced player - from very first days of UT. There are some other things I don't like in today UT99 online, but let stay topic.
So, anyone can tell us what anti-cheat is up to date, and can detect new cheats ? Here I mean in first place detection of X_Inst*Hook - which claims that passes ACE, Pure, etc , and is sold on time base - licence for given duration. This is what I saw on site selling it. Don't know about other new cheats, but there are some, for sure.
There is number of players capable to move much faster than normal. They dodge faster, farther. When you say it, they reply: "learn dodge" :D Yes, thank you very much ! Some even made little demonstration to me how to dodge properly. But what they did simply worked not for me. And that's very annoying. I really don't know is it because my crap connection, or they make fool of me, or server gives advantage to some players ??????
Note: here I don't talk about double jump, what may be combined with dodge. Some can do very long side dodge without jumping - they stay low during whole thing. Sad thing is that even some admins cheated that way: now down RocketArena server had admin who blatantly cheated - he moved 2x faster than normal, could dodge in Stalwart XL middle room between 2 platforms. Note that in that server was no double jump or some other movement mod.
All this make me sad and mad.
Can we do anything to make things better, or I should forget online playing, and go on some LAN party ?
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Re: Which anti-cheat is up to date ?

Postby SC]-[WARTZ_{HoF} » Sat Feb 14, 2015 7:27 pm

I'd go with the LAN party with no web access. There is sadly no up to date anticheat.
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Re: Which anti-cheat is up to date ?

Postby Wises » Sat Feb 14, 2015 8:03 pm

also remember that a lot of current players are seasoned players ... meaning they have been playing for 10-15years straight almost always on a daily basis.

in terms of dodging .. try on deck from either side of the beam (shieldbelt).. you can run and dodge from the boxes platform (where medkits are down side by wall to flak)
also from minigun platform (beneith GOO gun by stairs)
that is a legitimate dodge.. also from belt beam to jump boots.

so.. the main problem is .. player leveling where high ranking players just own / tear up new or less experienced players.

years ago I had an idea for leveling which went in depth to rank players and divert to individual servers.

ranks 1-3 redirected to learners server ranks (3+ can only spec on said server)
ranks 4-7 redirected to experienced server (others can play as well)
8-10 could be classed as elite and have their own server where others can spec.

then just a FFA server (Free For All) where all can play.
in terms of anticheat there has been word of heuristic's 'Higor' however this method could be on the back burners , forgotten or exclusified. (usually the latest anticheats are exclusified) :/ only because the heat makers manage to find ways around them.

the heuristical approach could be a great alternative to this as it would be 100% server side and be able to accurately track players positions ,Radius's,angles,obstacles,etc
then build a profile of said players for observation ie; trigger server demorec And alert admin. then upload to forums for mass judgment.(fully automated would be ideal)
so.. check players...if score exceeds 60% ... demorec and upload to forums...email admin and users for judgment.

this method would need to be combined with a new hwid system (one not bypassed by using wine for example)
therefore the system would need to be cross compatible across windows and Linux (mac's are Linux BTW)

perhaps another way as tested in the past is via email registration. where players stats are stored globally based on email address and they will only be able to login/play after entering email and logging in?

this has been done in the past with some servers.

the hwid system is slightly falible in the sense that it requires a clientside component which is vulnerable to exploitation.

I think using heuristics and email ID + IP address / Mac Address / ISP details could be a good start for future systems.
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Re: Which anti-cheat is up to date ?

Postby TruthAlwaysEmerges » Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:17 pm

Well, I know those jumps on Deck - one player shown them to me. But I was not able to do it. I guess because my conn. allows not so fast command flow.
But Wises, you just avoided to talk about cheating, really.
This is not that some can dodge 10% farther - what would be case in Deck - they dodge 2x farther, as I said. They can dodge uphill - what is not possible regularly. I saw such things on servers without double jump .
I don't think that supplying e-mail address can help anything. Surely, so tracking of player's movements, jumps should be efficient method. Actually, there should be some anti-cheats based on that. Question is how much it (over)loads server ?
Idea about allowing only specific skill level players also seems not realistic. Cheaters don't care - they will jump in low level server and be happy to slaughter over 20 games in row - 'cause they are sick in head.
Yes, I did some recordings, and even sent to admin. Then he said that he don't see any cheat :D
I think that admins are main problem with UT99 . Every wise man gone on other games, and in old UT99 we have just lame admins, to say so. Those who are lazy, who don't see obvious, who care not. And even worse - many of them are cheaters. Some ban never, some ban for nothing - I was banned just because used taunts, for instance :D
And, there are cheaters among poor players too - who can barely win even with cheat. But they are annoying too. Can recognize them - use radar, spam bots ...
For finish my blah in this thread: there are big differences between players, but as you go higher and higher level, it becomes smaller and smaller difference - like in sport. Best sprinters are close each to other, in 1/10s, 1/100 secs. Human capabilities are limited, and it is like parabola - going flat at top. Same is with game playing skills. I had lot of good games with some people - where results were close on most of maps. On few one dominated, but that's normal. UT99 is practically dead - unsupported old SW. Amen.
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Re: Which anti-cheat is up to date ?

Postby Wises » Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:45 pm

hmm ..

yes cheating is unfortunately apart of every game.
I have not personally seen these long distance dodges .. or perhaps just not been paying attention due to someone headshoting everyplayer in the room continuously... or burning smell coming from kitchen.

ok wait.. I lie I have seen some long dodges .. in BT styled Maps.. are you familiar with BunnyTrack GameType?
this GameType Requires a Very High Skill Level which few possess ... in this gametype you need to complete a course by jumping , dodging , bouncing and shooting ... accurately in most all instances. Now .. get a BT player in a DM Match with some slight inclination (ramp) and watch them seemlessy fly through the air like a bird?.. this is normal.

if you want to test such things.. then play offline in practice mode and see if you can complete the deck challenge from crate to belt in one swoop..
the technique is like this..

run upto the edge and dodge off in direction towards belt.. hold the direction key all the way.

- so if running from between crates with x2 medkits towards AMP... as close as you can to the edge (falling down to Acid Bath) dodge and hold RIGHT direction key 'D' until you land on the thin beam with shield belt.. now on beam ... go backwards towards wall and try running forwards and again dodging to the RIGHT (holding the 'D') key all the way .. and hopefully get boots.

this move is often fail and ends in acid bath..

the email thing etc was more for Player ID for Admin purposes.. ie; kickBan for Cheating... also stats collection.

tbh .. to be in a position of having to be able to distinguish cheats from legitimate players is not easy.. and can be erronious at best.

therefore the heuristical approach would be imo the first step to countering these things.

leveling also needs be concidered , because good players get accussed and inexperienced players get frustrated and leave

finally properly being able to identify Targets ;) is a must because once a descission has been made some action needs to be taken to prevent future FuckTards from getting back in.
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Re: Which anti-cheat is up to date ?

Postby papercoffee » Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:34 pm

TruthAlwaysEmerges wrote: UT99 is practically dead - unsupported old SW. Amen.

Well, then why are you here?
We already know this ...but here on UT99.org are the diehard fans who love to talk about it and play it, even so we know this game is dieing every week a little more.

Maybe is UT4 something for you?
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Re: Which anti-cheat is up to date ?

Postby jay2 » Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:44 pm

I seem to have no problems on the UK servers.
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Re: Which anti-cheat is up to date ?

Postby Chamberly » Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:51 am

Well yeah there are going to be cheaters anywhere, but playing on such server without the cheater (passworded server, only VIP players or something like that, regular players) can be possible by eliminating the cheaters (banning, kicks, etc.) but some other time they will come back around.

I don't think I've ever heard of such twice as long dodge cheat unless it's dodgebot.

But generally, each time we make an anti-cheat and release it, the cheaters will step up their game and get a way around it. It's not only in UT99 but in many other gaming industry, including computer security, these competition has been going on forever. It's not gonna stop possibly forever, but a temporary fix maybe for a certain amount of time.
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Re: Which anti-cheat is up to date ?

Postby noccer » Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:07 am

The only way to stop cheaters from cheating is to break their fingers.
They won´t do it agan, i swear :D
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>>You can't steal any ip (v4)adresses, there are exactly 4294967296 of them, and they will still exist when you wrote down all of them, or are stored in a (master)servers database ;)<<
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Re: Which anti-cheat is up to date ?

Postby Chamberly » Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:17 am

noccer wrote:The only way to stop cheaters from cheating is to break their fingers.
They won´t do it agan, i swear :D


Lmao :loool:
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Re: Which anti-cheat is up to date ?

Postby TruthAlwaysEmerges » Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:55 am

Some facts more: kickvote is disabled on most servers - at least on those I visited. What would be efficient against cheaters too - at least in cases when there is more fair player than cheater present. Sometimes they activate it, and after that it gets removed in day-two. Maybe overall gaming culture is low ?
I played once on some server against 3 low skilled people, and won easily . Just thought about that it was enough, and no point to play next map, when all 3 of them kickvoted me. Maybe they thought that I cheat, I don't know, because nobody said anything, but I was not angry. It was case of unbalanced skills. And counter cases occured too - when I was much worse than majority on server - then I kicked myself :D
Btw. I don't visit Bunny Track servers, and I know what it is. I talked about playing on regular maps, with only double jump and teleport mutators. Or without any mutator.

Chamberly wrote:Well yeah there are going to be cheaters anywhere, but playing on such server without the cheater (passworded server, only VIP players or something like that, regular players) can be possible by eliminating the cheaters (banning, kicks, etc.) but some other time they will come back around.
I don't think I've ever heard of such twice as long dodge cheat unless it's dodgebot.
But generally, each time we make an anti-cheat and release it, the cheaters will step up their game and get a way around it. It's not only in UT99 but in many other gaming industry, including computer security, these competition has been going on forever. It's not gonna stop possibly forever, but a temporary fix maybe for a certain amount of time.

Good points. But what about anti-cheat which tracks player movement and jumps, and detects irregular ones, too frequent dodging (must be pause between) and similar ? So, not based on seeking some scripts, code on players computer, but just looking movement. Certainly not good to detect aimbot, but that is not much used this days, as I see. I don't know is this what is referred as heurestic method ?
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Re: Which anti-cheat is up to date ?

Postby Pileyrei » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:56 am

What is your ping like to UK servers?

Try some of our Multiplay servers - just look in the master browser. We have 34 servers although about 7 of them get regular players.
Yes we encounter cheaters and actively ban them, even if it takes a little time.
http://www.unrealsurvivors.com

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Re: Which anti-cheat is up to date ?

Postby TruthAlwaysEmerges » Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:59 pm

Pileyrei wrote:What is your ping like to UK servers?

Try some of our Multiplay servers - just look in the master browser. We have 34 servers although about 7 of them get regular players.
Yes we encounter cheaters and actively ban them, even if it takes a little time.


I played on your servers. But, as said I have so-so good conn. mostly with German servers. On Multiplay servers can play max against weaker players. Lag is obvious most time - see other players often as flat figures bending in funny, cartoonish way :D

Here is concrete example: Mokum DM and fun server is almost all time with min 1 cheater. There is no admin.
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Re: Which anti-cheat is up to date ?

Postby Wises » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:32 pm

thought I might add..

set bNoCheating=True in server.ini may work?

*shrugs*
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Re: Which anti-cheat is up to date ?

Postby Chamberly » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:45 pm

TruthAlwaysEmerges wrote:Some facts more: kickvote is disabled on most servers - at least on those I visited. What would be efficient against cheaters too - at least in cases when there is more fair player than cheater present. Sometimes they activate it, and after that it gets removed in day-two. Maybe overall gaming culture is low ?
I played once on some server against 3 low skilled people, and won easily . Just thought about that it was enough, and no point to play next map, when all 3 of them kickvoted me. Maybe they thought that I cheat, I don't know, because nobody said anything, but I was not angry. It was case of unbalanced skills. And counter cases occured too - when I was much worse than majority on server - then I kicked myself :D
Btw. I don't visit Bunny Track servers, and I know what it is. I talked about playing on regular maps, with only double jump and teleport mutators. Or without any mutator.

Chamberly wrote:Well yeah there are going to be cheaters anywhere, but playing on such server without the cheater (passworded server, only VIP players or something like that, regular players) can be possible by eliminating the cheaters (banning, kicks, etc.) but some other time they will come back around.
I don't think I've ever heard of such twice as long dodge cheat unless it's dodgebot.
But generally, each time we make an anti-cheat and release it, the cheaters will step up their game and get a way around it. It's not only in UT99 but in many other gaming industry, including computer security, these competition has been going on forever. It's not gonna stop possibly forever, but a temporary fix maybe for a certain amount of time.

Good points. But what about anti-cheat which tracks player movement and jumps, and detects irregular ones, too frequent dodging (must be pause between) and similar ? So, not based on seeking some scripts, code on players computer, but just looking movement. Certainly not good to detect aimbot, but that is not much used this days, as I see. I don't know is this what is referred as heurestic method ?


About mapvote kicks, there is usually many severs that have mapvote kicks enabled, some are modified to have many kick vote to get someone kick voted or so. But someone like to get rid of the kick vote. & they do that by disconnecting and reconnecting to the server so they don't get kicked from the server. So the kick vote score aren't recovered like frag score or so. Unless a modified mapvote has that enabled.

There is another anticheat called BTAC (bunnytrack anticheat) which usually kick if the movement is too fast or so. But a lot of false positive occurred due to overclocked/multiple CPU in UT. Sometime, some anticheat aren't compatible with each other so not all can fit into 1 server without problem. :/ So I'd rather use a random anticheat loader for different gametype as an example, so when it is loaded, some kicks can be different. I'd need a dynamic actor loader for that then.

@Wises, that is for only anyone who is logged in as admin... I think. :d I always go ghost and fly to scan through a map outside the boundary to look for something in the map.
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