The AWESOME Mapping Contest

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Re: The AWESOME Mapping Contest

Postby papercoffee » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:43 pm

Feralidragon wrote: if possible, something like finishing it until the 22nd to release the pack on the 23rd

OK.
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Re: The AWESOME Mapping Contest

Postby papercoffee » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:22 pm

To all participants who made it in time...
You can fix your maps now if you want, but please send the fixed final version via PM to me. No upload to the forum as long as the voting is running.

For the people who didn't made it in time please finish your maps. We will add them as Bonus Content to the final map pack.

You have time to send your final map till 23th of December.


Oh I forgot the Gamers Choice Vote. I'll work on it.
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Re: The AWESOME Mapping Contest

Postby JackGriffin » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:32 pm

I stopped by to see how things were going and how the voting was running.

This won't be a popular opinion but if there is a next year you really need to shake up the format. Every year it's another winding, tight, well-done DM map that wins and no one ever sees it again after the contest is over. What is the purpose of the contest? If it's to get new people to play and to draw attention to the game then another batch of DM maps isn't going to do it no matter how well executed. Even now you can see that outside of the participants there is not much interest. There are thousands of small DM maps already, why make more no matter how well done?

The contest is an echo chamber reinforcing visually stunning but ultimately boring small deathmatch maps that offer nothing that hasn't been seen before. Get out of your comfort zone creators. Make something new, something exciting that interests people. This contest format is dying.
"You damn kids, back in my time we made the items, maps and games ourselves with an unwieldy engine using counter-intuitive crash-prone tools and we liked it so much we built communities around this which nowadays look like cults because they're quasi-parallel societies based on the same old games." -Hellkeeper
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Re: The AWESOME Mapping Contest

Postby Feralidragon » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:42 pm

Personally I don't see these contests as a way to promote the game or to attract players at all, I see them as a good excuse to load up UEd once a year and create a new map just for the fun of it, given that it's a lot more fun to create a map when you're contributing to a bigger pack and when other mappers are more active to give you valuable feedback, as otherwise a map release is a complete fart in the wind, generally speaking, since the game is saturated with all kinds of maps already, so any maps done now generally do not contribute almost anything to actual gameplay value unless they offer a new experience.

It's all mostly about enjoying the journey rather than the destination, and having an influx of great mappers contributing as well is all the more motivating for others to do something too, and it's always interesting to see the end results.

Even now I am currently creating a map for this pack, not because I think it will really be played for real in the future (I am pretty sure it won't), but just in good fun of just creating something new and different (after finding how that it has the right size for vehicles, I am actually building it with such in mind).

Now others may have different opinions and views on the matter, but this is what the contest is for me at least, especially since I have my own view and personal opinion of what's actually needed for there to be and happen to actually promote the game in some way, and to me it won't ever be through contests or mappacks alone, that's for certain imo.
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Re: The AWESOME Mapping Contest

Postby Terraniux » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:50 pm

JackGriffin wrote:I stopped by to see how things were going and how the voting was running.

This won't be a popular opinion but if there is a next year you really need to shake up the format. Every year it's another winding, tight, well-done DM map that wins and no one ever sees it again after the contest is over. What is the purpose of the contest? If it's to get new people to play and to draw attention to the game then another batch of DM maps isn't going to do it no matter how well executed. Even now you can see that outside of the participants there is not much interest. There are thousands of small DM maps already, why make more no matter how well done?

The contest is an echo chamber reinforcing visually stunning but ultimately boring small deathmatch maps that offer nothing that hasn't been seen before. Get out of your comfort zone creators. Make something new, something exciting that interests people. This contest format is dying.



I tried my best, producing a nice MH map, but got limited this time. Also my map has turned out be an unfortunate bag of crashes, with no clue of the source.
I glitched the matrix.... :mrgreen:

Agreeing with your statement, I had this opinion right from the start. dm dm dm ctf ctf dm MH (me) dm dm ctf ctf....
I aint given 1 point, let alone a mention of a review...... :lol2: , except outside of the participants. FragnFrag is the only one.... :lol2:

The most honour in this contest goes to Nelsona , Oji and a few other guys in my topic (forgot your names ), they shown the true interest of a actual functional working map, besides beauty. :thuup:
Let their names be big on the screen too. :thuup:
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Re: The AWESOME Mapping Contest

Postby UnrealGGecko » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:24 pm

Regarding UnderPressure, it's more of a gimmick map, there are tiny holes in that giant crusher you need get inside before it goes down in order to survive. Maybe a smaller mover or bigger and more noticeable holes would've done the trick though.
Having said that, this is more of an online only map, bots's best option is to use the stairs lol :mrgreen: as they cant seem to get in the holes.
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Re: The AWESOME Mapping Contest

Postby JackGriffin » Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:39 pm

@ Ferali: I understand your points and I agree almost across the board. I just come at it a little differently. Let me use an example...Does anyone remember anything about Community Map Pack 2? Lots of good maps you never played again. However the big standout from that was the XPickups mod which is still used today. In fact wasn't is used in at least one of these current maps? That's the sort of thing to be encouraged. It's fine to make more of the same maps but you can also coattail new development and new ideas by encouraging that too.

I don't really know how to properly address this. Maybe have distinct categories for 'normal' and 'unique'? As it is though anything new is going to lose (and therefore not be encouraged). Let me make a prediction: a year from now let's look at the play numbers for all these maps. I'm very sure that the MH map despite having no votes will by far have the most actual plays on servers. That needs to be considered in how the contest is structured. Is this contest to be thought of as like a photoshop contest where skill with the tools creates a visually stunning but ultimately forgettable end result? Or instead is this contest supposed to have a reason and a purpose other than celebrating the same thing over and over?

I'm very interested to see paper's post when he makes it of all the past winners side by side. I think that will be the best graphic to represent what I'm trying (badly) to say.
"You damn kids, back in my time we made the items, maps and games ourselves with an unwieldy engine using counter-intuitive crash-prone tools and we liked it so much we built communities around this which nowadays look like cults because they're quasi-parallel societies based on the same old games." -Hellkeeper
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Re: The AWESOME Mapping Contest

Postby R3plicant » Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:31 pm

JackGriffin wrote:@ Ferali: I understand your points and I agree almost across the board. I just come at it a little differently. Let me use an example...Does anyone remember anything about Community Map Pack 2? Lots of good maps you never played again. However the big standout from that was the XPickups mod which is still used today. In fact wasn't is used in at least one of these current maps? That's the sort of thing to be encouraged. It's fine to make more of the same maps but you can also coattail new development and new ideas by encouraging that too.

I don't really know how to properly address this. Maybe have distinct categories for 'normal' and 'unique'? As it is though anything new is going to lose (and therefore not be encouraged). Let me make a prediction: a year from now let's look at the play numbers for all these maps. I'm very sure that the MH map despite having no votes will by far have the most actual plays on servers. That needs to be considered in how the contest is structured. Is this contest to be thought of as like a photoshop contest where skill with the tools creates a visually stunning but ultimately forgettable end result? Or instead is this contest supposed to have a reason and a purpose other than celebrating the same thing over and over?

I'm very interested to see paper's post when he makes it of all the past winners side by side. I think that will be the best graphic to represent what I'm trying (badly) to say.


In short: UT99 is as good as dead and those left playing it, trying to resurrect it (or at least trying to inject new life into it or even just keep it going) are merely flogging a dead horse. Harsh reality.
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Re: The AWESOME Mapping Contest

Postby papercoffee » Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:48 pm

R3plicant wrote:Harsh reality.

Welcome to the party.

UnrealGGecko wrote:there are tiny holes in that giant crusher you need get inside before it goes down in order to survive

I figured as much ...but try to stay under these holes when someone is permanently shooting at you. And when you made it through then all the opponents respawn directly in front of you because they got crushed ...now try to take the flag fight the whole time stay alive until the mover gets finally up. Or go the stairs and get shot anyway. This map is too impossible to play.

This might work when you play with 3vs3 or very low level bots. But the max player recommendation seems to be decided by rolling a dice.
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Re: The AWESOME Mapping Contest

Postby Feralidragon » Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:55 pm

@JackGriffin: I understand your point, but it's unfair to ask for the kind of new things you want to see from a "mapping" contest.

What you probably want instead is something more akin to "Make Something Unreal", where you could have maps, mods, tools, any kind of content developed for the game, and have it so that people could go solo or with a team.

But in that case mappers are at a major disadvantage, because as solo they can only do maps, generally speaking, and no matter how good and beautiful their maps are, like you said they may be easily forgotten by most who have even tried them, simply because of the saturation of maps all around for UT99 already, both good and bad maps.

Except if you're mapping for Bunnytrack, because that's a gametype where the map itself is the star of the show and not just a place to play at, and so any popular BT server you would visit in the past (maybe even today) had tons of extremely high quality maps, where players would stay not only for the challenge but to discover the rest of the map and the beauty it had to offer, as well its atmosphere, and it was quite something.

Other than BT, mappers would only have a chance in that case in contributing with something really memorable and replayable if they created maps for a brand new gametype (like your BRUT) or if they had at least 1 coder backing them up into doing something truly different, which was exactly the case for the mappack you mentioned: it all started with Creavion and me, he worked on the maps and most models, I did the code and some effects, and the result was what you saw, and it's still used today although X-Pickups by itself is outdated and one of my worst/earliest work.

Otherwise, there isn't really much to go on other than trying to make a map for a regular gametype with maybe a unique twist not seen in other maps, as seen in a few of the submitted maps.

Every time this kind of talk arises, it really frustrates me that I hadn't have the time to actually progress on my end towards exactly a goal like that, because I too am looking forward at time we could see something really new again in the future, through contests or otherwise, but there's no omelette without eggs, as they say.
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Re: The AWESOME Mapping Contest

Postby papercoffee » Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:01 pm

Feralidragon wrote:because I too am looking forward at time we could see something really new again in the future, through contests or otherwise, but there's no omelette without eggs, as they say.

OK OK ...I got the message! I'm working on my map. GOSH DARN IT!







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Re: The AWESOME Mapping Contest

Postby OjitroC » Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:25 pm

JackGriffin wrote: I don't really know how to properly address this. Maybe have distinct categories for 'normal' and 'unique'?
A novel approach might be to ask the players on here what they wanted to see, be it a mutator or map or gametype or whatever, and structure a 'contest' around that.
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Re: The AWESOME Mapping Contest

Postby Feralidragon » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 pm

Last year's contest was openly discussed here in the forum, where everyone could give their input, and we all went with ChaosUT as a theme.
It didn't go that well imo.

Although defining a specific gametype, or set of gametypes, to map for may be a way to go, maybe for the top gametypes played online perhaps, idk.
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Re: The AWESOME Mapping Contest

Postby OjitroC » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:44 pm

Feralidragon wrote: Although defining a specific gametype, or set of gametypes, to map for may be a way to go, maybe for the top gametypes played online perhaps, idk.
Which brings one back to DM, CTF and MH, though the Siege and BT servers seem well populated. The point is, though, should it be a purely mapping contest? If so, then what about taking JackGriffin's ideas from the ChaosMansion and make maps with 'rooms' or sections that change on a random basis thus producing something novel and interesting? I was supporting your idea of 'Make Something Unreal' but structuring it around things for which there might be a 'demand', as it were.
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Re: The AWESOME Mapping Contest

Postby Feralidragon » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:32 pm

The problem is that there really is no demand, so even doing maps for top gametypes with top servers are just a best bet to have the maps played at all, and to do anything new one generally has to turn to scripting to do anything which is truly "new" in the sense Jack means it, which places most mappers at loss from the get-go, since the engine and existing tools severely limit everyone from the start on what you can do.

In order to give birth to whole new experiences like the one you're referring to, we need to give mappers the proper tools AND ecosystem in order to do so, as well as a good deal of motivation by making these tools truly powerful, exciting and worthwhile, to actually automatically pump ideas into content creators minds into creating something never seen before.
And the same goes for modders as well of course, but to a much lesser extent.

You can do all the mappacks you want around a specific themes, gametypes, or anything else, but the result will always be pretty much the same as far as true original exciting content goes.
And if you do it without being in the format of a contest, the timeline to finish anything will surely extend by months or even years, that's why a "contest" format was adopted, to force a specific end date without delays.
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