How need fix UT_ShieldBelt issue?

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Which setting must be by default for UT_ShieldBelt?

Remove only exactly Armor2/ThighPads
6
86%
Remove only Armor2/ThighPads and all subclasses for it
1
14%
Remove only exactly Armor2/ThighPads/all types of Unreal armor
0
No votes
Remove only Armor2/ThighPads/all types of Unreal armor and all subclasses for it
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 7

Buggie
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How need fix UT_ShieldBelt issue?

Post by Buggie »

Issue: https://github.com/OldUnreal/UnrealTour ... issues/461
In short: UT_ShieldBelt destroy all other armors on pickup even if it is custom and can be anything
For example if you carry sin2ut.ShieldTech then on pickup UT_ShieldBelt it will be destroyed. If it exists only once at level and must be throw - you in big trouble.
If you carry some items important for gameplay and must be not destroyed, but it is bIsAnArmor, then pickup UT_ShieldBelt destroy it and break game flow.

I think need remove only exactly Armor2/ThighPads (first option).
This need for not break existing experience for DM/CTF/AS in UT.

Unreal items is rare guest in UT, so can be ignored there.
Usually Unreal items used in MH were stacking of Shieldbelt and UT_ShieldBelt is not a bad thing.

IMO we can not blindly remove Armor2/ThighPads and all subclasses for it, because many custom armors sub-classed from it and no any chance know how powerful it.

But some servers can use subclass of default Armor2/ThighPads and it will be breakable change if we not remove it and it stacked in DM.
Last edited by Buggie on Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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OjitroC
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Re: How need fix UT_ShieldBelt issue?

Post by OjitroC »

How important an issue is this? On how many maps is it likely to occur?

What's the impact (if any) of the options on Oldskool Amp'd, X-Pickups and StuffSwapper?

Presumably if the removal option were configurable then it would be possible to have it so that picking up the UT Shield Belt removed nothing (and so one could stack up armor in the same way that X-Pickups does)?

Automatically merged

How would the change be implemented? Presumably it would be server-side? But would it also affect off-line play and if so, how will users be made aware of this change?
Buggie
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Re: How need fix UT_ShieldBelt issue?

Post by Buggie »

If you play without any custom stuff you will not notice this issue mostly. Maybe only if compare ShieldBelt and UT_ShieldBelt .
Also currently HUD masked this problem because not show more then 150 armor. So you can think it is stacked, but it is not.
In v469c you can see in HUD armor up to 9999, like health.
So you can notice this issue.

Impact can be only one - armor can be stacked with UT_ShieldBelt.
Even if it some custom like sin2ut.ShieldTech.

Also if some stuff game related like relics which must be once on level and must be not destroyed - will be not destroyed.

If configurable, you can list classes which need remove. As exact class or as class+, which means all subclasses of it too.

If UT_ShieldBelt stacked with armour and Thighpads in DM you get 300 point of armor. very big advantage against other players. Currently you can try some tricks like pickup UT_ShieldBelt, little damage self, pickup armor and thighpads, but this really difficult and after repickup shield all other armors gone.

Change will be implemented as change code of UT_ShieldBelt. Yes it is server-side, because inventory server-side management.
Off-line play affected, same as on server.

I not sure user must aware about that. Just play and see how items work.
For usual DM/AS/CTF all must be same as before.
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OjitroC
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Re: How need fix UT_ShieldBelt issue?

Post by OjitroC »

Thanks for the explanation. TBH I really have no idea what to think about it - for me personally the most important thing is that any change has no adverse impact on the mods/mutators that I use the most (StuffSwapper, weapons mods, OldSkool Amp'd, X-pickups etc).

It is difficult (impossible) to form an opinion about this issue if it is only really noticeable in 469c and one doesn't have 469c - is it available anywhere as it is not on GitHub?
Buggie wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:58 pm I not sure user must aware about that. Just play and see how items work.
Surely any new changes in 469c from 436/451/469b need to be documented - if for no other reason than that those changes might lead to the reporting of what appears to be a bug but isn't?
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TankBeef
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Re: How need fix UT_ShieldBelt issue?

Post by TankBeef »

Only mods I am playing recently are Nali Weapons 3 and ChaosUT. Does the issue affect these mods? Cause I have not noticed.
Buggie
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Re: How need fix UT_ShieldBelt issue?

Post by Buggie »

As I say you can notice this now only if some armor display somewhere in HUD in special way.
Because HUD armor points clamped to 150 you simple not notice your lost when pickup shield.
In v469c you will able see your real armor points up to 9999, so if you have 9000 points, pickup shield and get 150 instead... well, I think you be not happy. Shield after that will be for you as mine on minefield. And if you accidentally step on it when fight - it can be a lot of pain.

Automatically merged

Most changes from patches documented. In very boring long list. Most players never read it.
Possible need make special short list just for players for changes which affect gameplay.
And in terms easy for understand by regular players, not coders or mappers.

Automatically merged

Also, just because UT_ShieldBelt destroy all other armor only on pickup, order of pickup is matter.

if you pick up some A armor, B armor, C armor, UT_ShieldBelt then you end only with UT_ShieldBelt.
If you pickup firstly UT_ShieldBelt and after that A, B, C - then you end with all armors (if its can be stacked together of course).
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OjitroC
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Re: How need fix UT_ShieldBelt issue?

Post by OjitroC »

Buggie wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:03 pm Most changes from patches documented. In very boring long list. Most players never read it.
Possible need make special short list just for players for changes which affect gameplay.
And in terms easy for understand by regular players, not coders or mappers.
Personally I read the long list - I agree it could be boring but nevertheless it is essential - but I also agree that an additional shorter list for players would be a good idea as well.

Buggie wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:03 pm if you pick up some A armor, B armor, C armor, UT_ShieldBelt then you end only with UT_ShieldBelt.
If you pickup firstly UT_ShieldBelt and after that A, B, C - then you end with all armors (if its can be stacked together of course).
So, for those of us who've never really studied how the armor 'works' in UT - from 469c onwards, it will be possible to accumulate armor points upto 9999 (so you will be able to pick up the UT Shield belt, the UT armor and the UT thigh pads and they will have a total value of 300)? Won't this have a signficant impact on the way certain maps are played, especially where they might have more than one piece of armor of each type?

And in what cases won't it be possible to build up armor points by picking up the various pieces of armor in a map?

As I said before, one really needs to test out how the 'armor' (and the 'new' HUD) works in 469c, before coming to a firm view on this. Of particular importance, as noted before, is whether or not this has any impact on the way particular mods/mutators operate.
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Re: How need fix UT_ShieldBelt issue?

Post by Buggie »

Look like you not understand, nothing changed in v469c about how work armor. You can just see in your HUD humbers for armor more than 150. Nothing more.
Problem with dependensy of result from order of pickup items exists in UT long before that. I believe before even v436.
So this is not a new problem introduced by v469. It is very old problem which need to be solved.

Most players not notice this problem because this problem masked by HUD limitation of 150 armor max. But in v469c this limitation will be lifted and problem can easily visible.

You can accumulate armor points up to infinity I think. If items allow you do that. Just on HUD it will be clamped to 9999.

So I not see any point discuss about how that make some impact. This already happening. You not know about that, but this is fact. Even in v436.

Again, no any thing like "how the 'armor' (and the 'new' HUD) works in 469c". All work same. But now you can see you armor points between 151 and 9999 as real number not as "150" label.

Automatically merged

Well, poll goes to dead end. So I recreate it. Please revote again.

Option MUST BE configurable for each game type. It is 100% fact. But which settings we need accept accept as defaults? This is main question,

Need make defaults which best fit for most cases. Not break exists game experience (UT_ShieldBelt not stacked) but fix known problems (destroy sin2ut.ShieldTech).

Automatically merged

dm-!!!bug_shield.zip
Test map build in v436 and run in v436.
For illustrate issue I place in cube Armor2, ThighPads and UT_ShieldBelt. All respawn in 1 second.
All use reduced capacity for be visible in hud: 10 for Armor2, 5 for ThighPads and 15 for UT_ShieldBelt.

You can easily check: pickup order is matter. If you pickup UT_ShieldBelt first you got 30 armor points. If last - only 15.
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OjitroC
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Re: How need fix UT_ShieldBelt issue?

Post by OjitroC »

Buggie wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:49 pm
Again, no any thing like "how the 'armor' (and the 'new' HUD) works in 469c". All work same. But now you can see you armor points between 151 and 9999 as real number not as "150" label.
So you mean that in UT at the moment (in 436 etc) if you pick up the Shield belt, armor and thigh pads (which have a total value of 300) you actually have 300 armor points even though the HUD shows only 150?

I still come back to a previous point - if armor points upto 9999 can now be acccumulated in 469c and they couldn't previously, isn't this going to have an impact on how some maps, especially 1 v 1, are played?

And I'm still not sure when it will be possible to accumulate armor ponts and when it won't - what armor items will allow accumulation and which won't? If you pick up the shield belt and then pick up another shield belt are the original 150 points removed or do the points accumulate so you get 300 points?

Finally is any of this going to have an impact on any mods or mutators people use - will there be an impact on Oldskool Amp'd or X-pickups for example?
Buggie
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Re: How need fix UT_ShieldBelt issue?

Post by Buggie »

If used stock classes - no. There system of limitations.
When you pickup armor, it search shield in your inventory, use left amount of shield and add armor only for difference.

This rules weird. And build on assumptions. Like:
- exists only two types of armor and shielbelt
- shieldbelt amount equals sum of amount other two armors
- maximal amount of total armor never be more then shieldbelt default
And so on.

Also this rules not count some cases. Which can cause to total armor goes above 150 even on stock classes.

You have 50 left from shielbelt. Pickup armor. Now you got 150 total points. you pick up thighpads and got 200 total points.

"if armor points upto 9999 can now be acccumulated in 469c and they couldn't previously" - if this count of armor can be accumulated in v469c then it can be accumulated in v436 too. v469c nothing change about it.

If you pickup another shieldbelt, your shieldbelt just recharged to new value if new value is bigger. If no - nothing happen (but you pick up it).

It is exactly about shieldbelt. In different classes all can be different.

For Oldskool IDK. Possible yes if it use old shields and suits. For example toxin suit is armor technically. But you can swim in acid.
1. If you pickup shieldbelt when already use toxin suit, toxin suit wanished.
2. If you oickup firstly shieldbelt, secondly, toxin suit, toxin suit preserved and you now use both.

Suggested change make 1 case same as 2 - when you pickup shield it not wanished toxin suit.
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TankBeef
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Re: How need fix UT_ShieldBelt issue?

Post by TankBeef »

Buggie wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:54 am For example toxin suit is armor technically. But you can swim in acid.
1. If you pickup shieldbelt when already use toxin suit, toxin suit wanished.
2. If you oickup firstly shieldbelt, secondly, toxin suit, toxin suit preserved and you now use both.
Confirmed it. With the DMU-Deck16 map. Even picking up armor after does not disable suit, but shieldbelt does.
Buggie wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:54 am Suggested change make 1 case same as 2 - when you pickup shield it not wanished toxin suit.
But...there may be players who want to keep the shieldbelt that way, for an extra challenge maybe?
Buggie
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Re: How need fix UT_ShieldBelt issue?

Post by Buggie »

Then they set own config on server/local play. We talk there about defaults, not about expections.

As I can see this be string field in GameInfo where be comma-separated list of classes which need destroy on pickup shield. If class name ended with "+", then need destroy all subclasses too.
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sektor2111
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Re: How need fix UT_ShieldBelt issue?

Post by sektor2111 »

Why not fixing the critical crash issue UT_Stealth vs UT_ShieldBelt problem. For the rest I played this game all this time and I'm not disturbed by these things unless a stupid Stealth (it's not like Invisibility cannot have 99999 charge) combined with a Shieldbelt is crashing game.

Edit: I see some changes in 469b but for desirability all Bot is mindless. It takes 100 Belts if all are around even if he has already a fully charged shield. This way Bot is always distracted by items and won't hunt properly in 1on1 matches which is a lousy behavior.
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Re: How need fix UT_ShieldBelt issue?

Post by Buggie »

Because no such issue on github.

Automatically merged

Also please stop derailing thread. This topic with very specific title. You want something other - you create new topic.
I hope we done with that.
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sektor2111
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Re: How need fix UT_ShieldBelt issue?

Post by sektor2111 »

I was talking about UT_Shieldbelt of course, I apology if I was disturbing stage. To me UT_Shieldbelt needs more than a fix not only "Armors" stuff :? .