Negative/subtractive light?

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Leo(T.C.K.)
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Negative/subtractive light?

Post by Leo(T.C.K.) » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:19 pm

Can it be done in UT/Unreal? I know in later Unreal engines this is possible but not sure if in Unreal engine 1.

Since I saw this kind of bug:
[youtube]BVQ1L7o6Trc[/youtube]

I suppose it isn't possible with just uscript(or is it?), but I guess with C++ modification it can be done, right? If stuff like UT SDK was done.

Also can stuff like this be redone on current engine too?

[youtube]Xer-HjgdGM0[/youtube]

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Re: Negative/subtractive light?

Post by Creavion » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:41 pm

Dots managed to do it. It will be a feature of the next 227 i patch. By turning bDarkLight of any light to True the light won`t cast light anymore, but rather "darkness".
DarkLight.jpg
Since it is a render trick it won`t work for UT (means you can not render the map in Unreal for something like that, UT will just ignore the anti-light and will just normally show it as normal light). So you can not use it for UT, either Unreal only or you have to forget about it.
Last edited by Creavion on Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Negative/subtractive light?

Post by Leo(T.C.K.) » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:17 pm

Then I request it as a mod for UT/traditional unreal too. And as I have found out the light headers are missing from the public headers, so the only way he could pull this out is by taking a look at some of the Unreal engine "leaks", which indeed included the lighting source. In that case it is kinda arrogant to make it 227 only and I disgress and disagree with that but I will be happy if he ports it to other "platforms".

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Re: Negative/subtractive light?

Post by Creavion » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:23 pm

Ask Smirf, ask dots, ask on oldunreal or unrealsp.org but I do not have much business with 227 anymore anyway. No idea if it can be coded "stand-alone" without 227.
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Re: Negative/subtractive light?

Post by Shadow » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:29 pm

Well, YES they had the possibility to add it because they have the complete source for Unreal - but there currently is no equivalent patch for UT possible, maybe it's easier to implement, I don't know didn't dispute about that feature yet...
Image

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Re: Negative/subtractive light?

Post by Leo(T.C.K.) » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:31 pm

Creavion wrote:Ask Smirf, ask dots, ask on oldunreal or unrealsp.org but I do not have much business with 227 anymore anyway. No idea if it can be coded "stand-alone" without 227.
If I only wasn't banned from the places you just mentioned..too with the former still being the IP ban in place so I can't even read the forums.

EDIT: Response to Shadow: Except dots never had acess to the source, only smirftsch has and he cannot share that with them. So that leaves the other option I said.

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Re: Negative/subtractive light?

Post by Marco88 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:23 am

Yes I used a leaked UE1 version to be able to write that (no it's not Unreal/UT sources), and no I can not release it to anyone in public for legal reasons because it is part of Epic's copyrighted codes (not even as a mod for UT or Unreal). Only Smirftch does have the legal rights to release Unreal/UT patches from Epic.

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Re: Negative/subtractive light?

Post by Leo(T.C.K.) » Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:39 pm

Marco88 wrote:Yes I used a leaked UE1 version to be able to write that (no it's not Unreal/UT sources), and no I can not release it to anyone in public for legal reasons because it is part of Epic's copyrighted codes (not even as a mod for UT or Unreal). Only Smirftch does have the legal rights to release Unreal/UT patches from Epic.
Don't forget thanks to who you have that though.
Wouldn't it make it illegal then to release it within 227 even if smirftsch has the rights, because it was you who made it technically and not him? You could apply the same here.
In the end it sounds like an excuse to me, just so that people would use 227 more than now. First off, it is kind of "thievery" already and it is proprietary only(what if master unreal wanted to use it for his unreal alpha remake project, since they were gonna use "negative" lights back then, for the chameleon heart item and dark flares, he is basing it on unreal 200 and 225, for now, so really this is more obstructions when you think of that). It would make sense to make it as a part of mod tbh for unreal/ut, if this is possible with 227 then why not. It indeed is possible, just you don't wanna do that because you want everyone to use 227 only in order to give this feature, but remember that without my efforts you wouldn't be able to pull this off in the first place and you know what I am talking about here.

Besides realistically, Epic wouldn't notice such a small light changing mod anyway so I don't think that's the true concern at all. It is after all only changing a light and it's a mod, so technically it falls into the safe cathegory, if you were to use this code within different game, then that would be a problem. In fact I got told in past by an Epic employee that beta content reusaged in mods are still "safe", too, that it would matter if I was gonna use that content to make money on it or to simply put it in different game, then it would matter to them, but as long as it is not, then it is something they don't really care about. (except Mark Rein might not like "the idea")

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Re: Negative/subtractive light?

Post by []KAOS[]Casey » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:07 pm

1) Code made by someone{snippets or not} is subject to DMCA {ownership is whoever made it}, this means Dots could give with his permission any code to anyone and they could use it
2) Nobody has UT source code but Smirf and UTPG, this cannot ever be made for UT(It's a >NEW< Render.dll) until Epic decides that smirf can do UT(won't happen), have fun.
3) Releasing a new Render.dll that's fully functional without permission will get someone's ass sued into oblivion.

Seriously, what? It's just simply not possible for it to be on any other platform legally. It's not that we don't want UT or other versions to not have it. It's just that we can't.
It is after all only changing a light and it's a mod, so technically it falls into the safe category
This is an Engine update. It's not possible in a mod.

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Re: Negative/subtractive light?

Post by Creavion » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:40 pm

[]KAOS[]Casey wrote:1) Code made by someone{snippets or not} is subject to DMCA {ownership is whoever made it}, this means Dots could give with his permission any code to anyone and they could use it
2) Nobody has UT source code but Smirf and UTPG, this cannot ever be made for UT(It's a >NEW< Render.dll) until Epic decides that smirf can do UT(won't happen), have fun.
3) Releasing a new Render.dll that's fully functional without permission will get someone's ass sued into oblivion.

Seriously, what? It's just simply not possible for it to be on any other platform legally. It's not that we don't want UT or other versions to not have it. It's just that we can't.
It is after all only changing a light and it's a mod, so technically it falls into the safe category
This is an Engine update. It's not possible in a mod.
Well, up to a certain degree you could render certain lighting stuff in 227 for using it for UT then. You only must not change geometry and/or lighting anymore or the changes are lost. Thats better than nothing for sure.
This all reminds me now of Leos thread on beyondunreal regarding unrealsp mapping contest. But hey, at least we have now a new member, even if you only registered because of this thread. Anyway: I sent you a PM!
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Re: Negative/subtractive light?

Post by Leo(T.C.K.) » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:51 pm

I believe it could made made into a mod as well, not just render.dll modification. Sure the light code is inside render.dll but that means you could theoretically create a new sublight actor and make that use a new .dll file based on the code from unlight.cpp or something like that, that is what I meant.

Basically only smirfsch can make native code changes regarding to this new patch, right? Then why is this possible then and why is nobody suing dots (because he technically didn't get the permission himself)? Well I guess simply because it would be really ridiculous to do so and they wouldn't care in practice, not even with some render.dll hack or a mod based on that.

And actually, there was a UT 400 source code leak as well in past, but I guess I shouldn't say much about that and it doesn't matter right now.
So it's not like nobody else has the UT sourcecode, not to mention the ones who licensed it back then should have it as well. That's irrelevant though so whatever.


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Re: Negative/subtractive light?

Post by Leo(T.C.K.) » Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:15 am

I was told some games actually use subtractive color for lighting altogether btw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtractive_color as opposed to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Additive_color

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Re: Negative/subtractive light?

Post by []KAOS[]Casey » Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:44 am

What part of it has to be an change in Render.dll don't you understand? It's not something you can interface. There is no hack available for it. If the functions were Virtual functions where you can actually redefine it, sure, okay, you can try. It may not work right, but you might be able to do something.

But they're not virtuals.

This is a function that is done directly before applying lights to a Surf. Go find functions that interface with lighting and Surfs and you'll see why I say that it's not possible.

Also, I would absolutely love to see anyone sue Dots from the united states over maybe 5 lines of code he made himself. International lawsuits are rarely done because of how impossible it is to prove that something illegal is done. Ever try to get a subpoena on something across an ocean where you're not even certain it ever happened, or you could never prove it even happened? I could just say right now that smirf did that code and no one would be the wiser. No one would know, and you wouldn't have a base to work from. In fact, you're just taking his word on it that he did make it, and he did use code from a UE1 engine. There is no proof, nor can you or anyone obtain any. There is no case.

I must reiterate that this is not possible to do in a mod

not

possible

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Re: Negative/subtractive light?

Post by Leo(T.C.K.) » Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:03 am

[]KAOS[]Casey wrote:What part of it has to be an change in Render.dll don't you understand? It's not something you can interface. There is no hack available for it. If the functions were Virtual functions where you can actually redefine it, sure, okay, you can try. It may not work right, but you might be able to do something.

But they're not virtuals.

This is a function that is done directly before applying lights to a Surf. Go find functions that interface with lighting and Surfs and you'll see why I say that it's not possible.

Also, I would absolutely love to see anyone sue Dots from the united states over maybe 5 lines of code he made himself. International lawsuits are rarely done because of how impossible it is to prove that something illegal is done. Ever try to get a subpoena on something across an ocean where you're not even certain it ever happened, or you could never prove it even happened? I could just say right now that smirf did that code and no one would be the wiser. No one would know, and you wouldn't have a base to work from. In fact, you're just taking his word on it that he did make it, and he did use code from a UE1 engine. There is no proof, nor can you or anyone obtain any. There is no case.

I must reiterate that this is not possible to do in a mod

not

possible
OF COURSE
[youtube]hLSnGe06kAI[/youtube]

Well..alright then. I haven't really studied it in detail and I'm not really into C++ so yeah, but theoretically i could make a render.dll hack then instead, if it's really not possible to call it some way from a new native mod. I mean if such artifacts, or different LE types exist which cast some kind of shadow in one way or other, maybe it could be done, or at least there should be alternative way other than modifying the light actor and native code itself, just something that would look "alike" but close enough.

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