pics or it didn't happen - suggestion for a new House Rule

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nogardilaref
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Re: pics or it didn't happen - suggestion for a new House Ru

Post by nogardilaref » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:06 pm

Chamberly wrote:I'll disagree for requiring this:
Any project which does not (mod/mutator/code in general), should instead have either a video or a full well formatted description of what it's supposed to do.
I don't want a full page flooded with stuff that made it required to do so. Anything simple that can be easily described in a TL;DR format will be easier, IMO.
Otherwise, anything I'd like to post that required this... I'll decide not to post it here because I wouldn't be able to explain every single thing. Bugs are bound to be found and reported too, so it's in a grey area of finding unexpected things.
By "full well formatted description" I didn't mean that you would need to describe the whole thing in detail, I only meant it to be a good enough description so whoever downloads it, is fully aware of what is being downloaded there.

For example, if you made a simple mutator which all it did was to double the size of the pickups around the map, all you would have to say about it is exactly that:
"This is a mutator which doubles the size of the pickups in a map."
perhaps with instructions on how activate the mutator itself, such as:
"Copy the contents to System, and then in the game activate the "Double Pickups" mutator."

And if you make something complex enough that would require a huge post to explain, you can simply summarize it into the most important things it does and what it consists off, you don't need to talk about every single detail, but doing so in a way that it's easier to read, like:
"This mod does the following:
- Doubles the pickups in a map.
- Makes ammo explosive.
- Removes headshots.
- ...
"


Because generally those who release stuff have a tendency to not explain anything, or to explain everything in a single line with no punctuation or anything, making it very hard to read, hence the "full" and "well formatted" parts.
Some places like ModDB even have bare minimum requirements whenever you want to post an addon or a mod there, and they will review and approve the mod if all requirements are met, and this thus far ensured at least a minimum of quality of the site overall, so you know that when you open a mod page, there's at least a minimum amount of substance to it.

Sure, it's in the developer's best interest to make a good presentation on what he/she's offering to the community, but if many developers do not care to do so, it doesn't take long before the real good mods where the developers cared to present well, get sunk within all the sludge which are the other mods which are painful to even open the page to check out given that they lack even the most fundamental things to pick anyone's interest at all.

Regardless however, a forum is meant for discussions only, and the only reason why so much content is released here in the first place through topics and whatnot is that there's currently no better format or place to do so, not yet at least.

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OjitroC
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Re: pics or it didn't happen - suggestion for a new House Ru

Post by OjitroC » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:04 pm

nogardilaref wrote: Regardless however, a forum is meant for discussions only, and the only reason why so much content is released here in the first place through topics and whatnot is that there's currently no better format or place to do so ...
That's only partly true - have a look at the Board Index and the short description under each Discussion - quite a few of them invite the posting of content (or, at least, appear to do so) - for example
Spoiler
Show
Mapping
Tutorials and discussions about Mapping - Introduce your own ones!
Sounds & Music
Search and find cool Voicepacks, Sounds and Music or show us your own ones!
Skins
Search and find cool Skins, or introduce your own ones!
So I don't think it is, or has been, meant solely for discussion - it's always been a place where new content can be presented and made available as well; though it's true that quite a lot of that content was formerly hosted elsewhere.

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SilverSound
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Re: pics or it didn't happen - suggestion for a new House Ru

Post by SilverSound » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:24 pm

So, visual stuff pics and small descript.

Script stuff a bullet list of what it does. Cool.

What I already do.


I really don't think we should force something like this one others just because of frustration. Seems kinda bad on the outside. People will ignore bad posts period.
I've been away from this forum due to lot's of fighting and arguing. It started at the mapping contest thread.

I just hope we can all chill out and stop being so angry all the time. :?
"Woah what?! I wish I was recording that...."

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papercoffee
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Re: pics or it didn't happen - suggestion for a new House Ru

Post by papercoffee » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:27 pm

EvilGrins wrote:
Barbie wrote:What would be the punishment?
The guillotine!
Much to sophisticated. I'm for the good old-fashioned break on the wheel. :ironic:

Ok jokes apart...
JackGriffin wrote:
Barbie wrote:What would be the punishment? Removing that post?
Yeah, exactly that. The signal to noise ratio needs to stay where it's productive.
Removing posts instantly is too much ...but the staff needs a scope of action. To have an base for discussion with the thread starter and content provider. Only if the OP is stubborn, out of a disgruntled state, and don't want to update their posts at least with a minimum of description (images for visual stuff of course) should the staff be allowed to move the thread or delete the link.
Chamberly wrote:Could agree. Posting Downloadable contents
Chamberly wrote:I'll disagree for requiring this
Do you agree or disagree? I'm puzzled now.

@All.
I would love to NOT have this rule in action.
But the last events where member refused to post additional visual infos because of flimsy reasons made me think about it.
If we could all agree that this should be an unwritten but followed rule in the future then I would be more then happy.
JackGriffin wrote:This forum is the de facto google result for a majority of UT related searches
^Pretty much this

nogardilaref
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Re: pics or it didn't happen - suggestion for a new House Ru

Post by nogardilaref » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:07 pm

OjitroC wrote:
nogardilaref wrote: Regardless however, a forum is meant for discussions only, and the only reason why so much content is released here in the first place through topics and whatnot is that there's currently no better format or place to do so ...
That's only partly true - have a look at the Board Index and the short description under each Discussion - quite a few of them invite the posting of content (or, at least, appear to do so) - for example
Spoiler
Show
Mapping
Tutorials and discussions about Mapping - Introduce your own ones!
Sounds & Music
Search and find cool Voicepacks, Sounds and Music or show us your own ones!
Skins
Search and find cool Skins, or introduce your own ones!
So I don't think it is, or has been, meant solely for discussion - it's always been a place where new content can be presented and made available as well; though it's true that quite a lot of that content was formerly hosted elsewhere.
I think you misunderstood what I meant (and probably many others).

It is a fact that this forum is also used to post content, hence there being sections for it, but my point is, that a forum is meant for discussions only, and the fact that this forum is used for other things as well, it's only because there's currently no better place to do so, that's all there is to it.
As an analogy, take Steam or ModDB as examples: they both have forums, but they clearly separate the forums from the actual content, you don't see content being released through forums in either one, unless (mainly in the case of Steam) there's no support anywhere else to release such content, or if the kind of content is not something supported by either one.

What I mean to say with all of this is that in places where the content is presented properly, they have all these presentation rules in place to guarantee the bare minimum amount of quality, to avoid a bad user experience from who's browsing through said content.
And from the moment this forum has been set as a place to do more things than just discussing, unlike what a forum is actually meant to be, such rules should have been in place from the start so it wouldn't sound weird now to do so.

As a matter of fact, I know at least one forum which does the same thing, and has some of such rules.
For instance, the JC3MP community forum (JC3MP = Just Cause 3 Multiplayer, which got voted as one of the top mods in ModDB this year), is very similar to ut99.org in what it's meant to be, and they have specific rules on how to advertise servers for example, while for content they have no rules in place yet, but only because it wasn't needed thus far, given that the community is sensitive enough to actually make releases of substance with information and screenshots:
https://community.nanos.io/index.php?/f ... -releases/

Just open some topics there, at random if you wish, and compare the level of overall quality with what is posted here (and mind you, they are simply mods, code and stuff like that, just like mutators here).
And I don't mean the quality of the screenshots or the game of course, I meant the trouble each modder went through to actually post something of substance and well formatted, and look how great and informative each and every post looks, it feels really great just browsing through the content there.

Even I got inclined to do modding for them, and started so, wouldn't their API still be too limited for me for the time being.

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OjitroC
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Re: pics or it didn't happen - suggestion for a new House Ru

Post by OjitroC » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:47 pm

nogardilaref wrote: I think you misunderstood what I meant (and probably many others).
No, not really. I agree entirely with you that all posts, especially those containing or referring to content, should be clear, informative, well laid out and accompanied by visual material (where appropriate). I also agree entirelly that there should be a written or unwritten 'rule' (a presentation rule) that requires this and that gives site staff the right to withhold, edit or otherwise deal with posts that do not meet these conditions.

I merely take issue with the contention that "a forum is meant for discussions only" and consider it to be a 'good' thing that it has evolved or developed into being used for other things as well - mainly because, on a personal level, I relish the diversity and variety of topics and content posted on this forum and feel that this is what makes it vibrant - but that's just me.

The main thing is that it has now been recognised that a presentation rule is required (I suppose the issue still remains whether it should be written or unwritten).

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Carbon
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Re: pics or it didn't happen - suggestion for a new House Ru

Post by Carbon » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:35 am

It's too bad we suddenly need this at all. Maybe a bit reactionary?

The recent issues of incomplete/unfinished work being posted might best be seen as a wave, that already seems to have rolled back. We want to remain open to new members and ideas and yet we haven't the facilities to make a separate area for content as is done in ModDB. Quality control will take people to maintain.

So yes, the idea of a template for content would be good; a template that needs to be completed before anything can be made public. Pics, descriptions, etc. would all need to be completed before posting. How one might go about enforcing this is another discussion I suppose, but I like the idea to offer a bit of quality control without being prejudicial or a too-large barrier for newcomers to get some work out for criticism.

I'm not sure if we shouldn't just be a bit more tolerant as well. Yes, the drama lately is ridiculous, but this isn't necessarily directly related to content posting (or not universally). As it is, we do have a section for content and that keeps it confined. It has spilled over, but again, that is a recent development and due to only a couple of people who seem to have boundary issues in general.

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Re: pics or it didn't happen - suggestion for a new House Ru

Post by JackGriffin » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:14 am

SilverSound wrote: I've been away from this forum due to lot's of fighting and arguing. It started at the mapping contest thread.
Quote of the thread right there and the elephant in the room.
So long, and thanks for all the fish

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Re: pics or it didn't happen - suggestion for a new House Ru

Post by papercoffee » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:54 am

SilverSound wrote: I just hope we can all chill out and stop being so angry all the time. :?
And this is my quote of the thread.

Ok I just want to know if such a rule is necessary or are we able to hold up a level of matureness.
I mean, many other visitors told us already that we are the most regulated forum of the whole UT community and that we will fail with this attitude. But look around, we are now the most visited and most active of all those forums.
And that's not despite the rules but rather because of them.

I would like to have this suggestion I posted at the start, more as a netiquette than a rule.

It would be highly appreciated that any projects and found content that has a visual component are presented visually with either screenshots or video.
Any project and found content which does not (mod/mutator/code in general), should instead have either a video or a well formatted description of what it's supposed to do.

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Re: pics or it didn't happen - suggestion for a new House Ru

Post by Chamberly » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:01 am

JackGriffin wrote:
Chamberly wrote:I'll disagree for requiring this:
Any project which does not (mod/mutator/code in general), should instead have either a video or a full well formatted description of what it's supposed to do.
I don't want a full page flooded with stuff that made it required to do so. Anything simple that can be easily described in a TL;DR format will be easier, IMO.
Otherwise, anything I'd like to post that required this... I'll decide not to post it here because I wouldn't be able to explain every single thing. Bugs are bound to be found and reported too, so it's in a grey area of finding unexpected things.
Cham, this is a *forum*. It's designed precisely for what you just said you don't want to use it for: proper discussion of things concerning UT.

The millennial logic-twisting being used in this thread should just stop. This forum exists for the very reason paper has suggested this rule: the easiest sharing of ideas and materials. I'm surprised this is even a point of contention given that every person here has posted things before. It's only been a handful of times that this proposed rule hasn't been followed anyway, even before it was suggested. Is this more about "This is the logical choice" or "I don't want to be told what to do"?
I don't know what you are thinking here, but I was saying I don't want to explain every step of code and reposting replication tutorial in ever downloadable contents that I'd release unless the person asks.
Last edited by Chamberly on Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Higor
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Re: pics or it didn't happen - suggestion for a new House Ru

Post by Higor » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:12 am

@papercoffee and the rest of you need to lurk the 'chans' for a couple of weeks to see how it's done.

See spam thread? Ignore.
See smoke screen thread? Reply "aaaaaaaaand?"/"fake and gay".
See 4 smoke screen threads in a row? Lock all and delete for "spam", take it to PM's.
See ad-hominem in reply (even coming from a green user?). Edit the post, put a single dot and warn the user to not be an antisocial aspie with a dick shaped head.
See drama thread? Reply "grow up kid, this isn't the place for that shit", lock.

Move on.
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Re: pics or it didn't happen - suggestion for a new House Ru

Post by JackGriffin » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:55 am

Chamberly wrote:I don't want to be targeted/bullied for such thought you/others think I'm pulling
Just stop with the social justice trigger words. No one is "targeting" you and you certainly aren't getting "bullied". I replied to you. My opinion is different than yours and we are debating that in a very civil manner, no one is getting abused. SMFH....

...
Last edited by papercoffee on Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited for avoiding more toxicity
So long, and thanks for all the fish

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papercoffee
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Re: pics or it didn't happen - suggestion for a new House Ru

Post by papercoffee » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:58 am

Higor wrote:@papercoffee and the rest of you need to lurk the 'chans' for a couple of weeks to see how it's done.

See spam thread? Ignore.
See smoke screen thread? Reply "aaaaaaaaand?"/"fake and gay".
See 4 smoke screen threads in a row? Lock all and delete for "spam", take it to PM's.
See ad-hominem in reply (even coming from a green user?). Edit the post, put a single dot and warn the user to not be an antisocial aspie with a dick shaped head.
See drama thread? Reply "grow up kid, this isn't the place for that shit", lock.

Move on.
:loool: That's good ...but we are not 4chan.
Anyway, some of those can be used. :twisted:

Edit------------------------------------
Oh and right now we seem to have a situation where this suggestions of Higor might be used.

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Re: pics or it didn't happen - suggestion for a new House Ru

Post by nogardilaref » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:39 pm

Well, it seems to me that all parties involved are still a little bit too exalted after all to even begin to discuss new rules, so I agree with Carbon there and perhaps this discussion should be postponed for a couple of months at least, until everyone is chilled enough to do so.

After all, some people have left or became more silent, some which were responsible for some of such content, others responsible for such drama, so perhaps we could all focus in making this forum a better place first through an improvement of our own behavior.
We all (and yes, that includes me) stepped out of line sometimes, and got either a bit too excited or too angry upon certain topics, releases and whatnot, so I would say that let's try to not do that in the first place, and start 2018 properly that way.

And from here, anyone who would step out of line, should be either warned or even temporarily banned if needed to be, with next to no tolerance.
Then, later on, if there are still enough content releases to justify it, we could perhaps recover the discussion around this new rule.

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papercoffee
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Re: pics or it didn't happen - suggestion for a new House Ru

Post by papercoffee » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:15 pm

Well said Nog.

I'll postpone this discussion for now, and reopen this thread if needed.
Thanks to all for their insights and opinions.

-Closed-