Suggestion for the next competition

[Dr.Flay]

Chaos

Very simply more use of the beloved Chaos mod and resources.
It is loaded with extra funky things to play an edit with.
Textures, meshes, models and animations.

My only criteria is that it shows-off the features in the final 1.1 version
http://chaoticdreams.org/chaosut/

I have not posted this at the Chaos site, because no-one knows the site exists, because people insist on hosting and posting the first version, as if the Chaos site did not exist !
This thoughtless behaviour has kept many UT servers stuck in a time-warp of yesteryear, which forces players not to update, and so stops players from benefiting from fixes etc.

Lets throw some ideas around that are not just map related.
A map-pack is obvious, but "what is Chaos?" and what should that mean from a design point of view? etc.
A standard map-pack using Chaos textures is just a standard map-pack.

Discuss....

*EDIT*
DM-CUTA_Cerebro
An example Chaos Arena (CUTA) style map.
[youtube]kNUmNdzaAfE[/youtube]
These are aimed at a small amount of players getting very up-close and personal
It is a very different style of fighting.
Tip:
It can help to swap to 3rd person while using the sword, but I forgot to add my key-binds

[ASLY]

Huh, I like that idea!
I already thinking a map like this, dark textures, candles, skull heads, pentagrams, a skybox which looks like hell, some zombie(?), Barons from Doom, maybe some dragons for decoration
Oh yeah and Chaos weapons!¡ And there is the UTExtension pack which there a cool fire effect what is looks awesome in Offline game, sadly I think Online don't work like the waterstream, I already posted this problem
I vote with +1, sadly right now I don't have to much time for everything, I have a lot To-Do list and Im at home in every second weekend
And therr is a such weapon which would be good for Chaos style map, from WeaponLord the GibCannon, Ripper, Chainsaw, ChaosUT weapons, ... (?) etc.
So I like this MapPack idea!

OFF:
I already try to register to the ChaosUT forum, but I can't
Because the Admin don't certification my Account
Just want to ask where I can get the Chrek models wires for SkinMaker

[Feralidragon]

...and so do other mods have textures, resources, models, etc... tbh I don't know what's so special with ChaosUT in particular when it comes to mapping.
I think that if you're mapping thinking about ChaosUT specifically, using those resources is ok, if not, there's a ton a lot richer content out there, including the ones from UT2k4 and etc (I even made a small pack with those for anyone to use that I distributed in one of my old maps), which as lot more of Chaos-like resources that ChaosUT itself.

Having that said, I did a map in the past using ChaosUT resources (when I didn't even know how to mod for the game, in my early dev years), and it's a mix of CTF with MH with a bit of SP campaign into it, I never released it although I still have it in my HDD to play with times to times for a nostalgic feeling from when I built it and since it still has some nice concepts I want to recycle some day, and I didn't release it because by the end of it I saw how unclean and troublesome was having to carry the whole mod behind the map in order to play even with normal weapons (I did show it though, here: http://www.ut99.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t ... 185#p54806 ).

ChaosUT is a great mod for playing, but a weapon mod shouldn't ever be used for mapping itself for its resources alone, it should only be used if you plan to use its weapons in there directly (and even so, it's preferable to build something in the level itself instead to replace the weapons by their ChaosUT counterparts if the mod is loaded up, so the map is always playable).
It would be best if ChaosUT released a lightweight pack with resources specific for mapping (or if someone ripped them out into a new package with their permission), rather than using the mod itself to just use a couple of models or a couple of textures from it.

And that reasoning applies to any mod, not ChaosUT alone.

[Radi]

Seriously I like that idea. I thinking many times of making a map for chaosUT because of its content, but on second side always thought that making such non standard map cause a less attention to it and less players.
.
So here is a little question to all interested:
players still use ChaosUT mod for playing nowadays ?

[Dr.Flay]

Due to the amount of spammers trying to join, the admin have had to manually deal with registration.
The IRC room is the best place to make personal contact.
[url]irc://irc.quakenet.org/chaoticdreams[/url]
From a design and ethical point of view, I would like to remind people, that a pentagram is a Pagan symbol, but an upside-down pentagram is Satanic (same as the Christian cross).
Look at Feralis weapons effects on things like the new Oversurrectors.
Circular and filled with meaningless symbols or runes. This removes any connection with human history or religions.
There is a Nali rune set and even a Nali font I would encourage people to use more often.
Chaos has extra animations that would be very useful for people to mod with. various melee and throwing animations are available (much like in the NW3 mod).

Actually Ferali, your 2 CTF weapons are perfect for use with Chaos. The have the perfect match of power and style.
Very valid points you raise.
Why Chaos? This is just an attempt to raise the profile of the Chaos mod as a still valid and developed project with a future (even though it is not U-engine).
Indeed there are better/newer texture packs, but people still map with original UT textures.
Chaos is a standard part of the final UT, and almost all UT players have it (probably even more than players with renderer updates).

I like your suggestions. I had not thought about the 2K4 resources !
Anyone with new renderers can use the textures from the 2K4 mod. And also newer decos and meshes could be exported for use in U1.
It never occurred to me, but if CUT2 has the same textures plus new ones, we could have a normal hi-res pack for UT (very handy if we can keep it matching).
I'll see if the guys are OK with me making split resource packs, and see if they can supply any of the old source.

Unfortunately you are right about Chaos mapping being nothing special. That is why I put forward the question "What makes a Chaos map, a Chaos map?"
Mostly I see normal maps with added skulls and proxy statues.
Lame.

We get a lot of competitions where people are limited to the original UT files, but I doubt you could do that with Chaos (though people can surprise you).
Give them some funky new texture packs and they will just make the same map, but with nicer textures.
Some of the Chaos maps in the 2K4 mod, are a good example of the environment a mad-evil-chaos-demon would make people fight to the death in.
Think "what would please the Emperor Caligula?"
Think "Mad Max - Beyond the Thunderdome".
I have played a few Escher inspired maps, which are more Chaos than most Chaos maps. Portals in the walls and ceilings, and people dropping out of nowhere. Crazyness, but great fun.

We still have some good designers here, with an arty back-ground. I'd like to see a themed project that can be based on a common mod we all have.
A few of the recent maps from here (including Feralis new map) I think would have made excellent Chaos maps.
I see Chaos mapping as an excuse to use the effects or tricks that seem odd in normal games.
Although I do think CTF in an Escher map would just take it too far
Perhaps people will find it easier to say what they also feel is lacking or wrong with most Chaos maps ?
How can you map in a way that uses the bouncing sniper ammo, proxy or grappling-hook etc. ?

@Radi Yes. Everyone with the GOTY UT has the first version of Chaos. Most servers now just use the Chaos mutator rather than the Game-mode (that is why you don't see any servers in the Chaos browser). It allows them to selectively use certain Chaos items per map.
The final version 1.1 is available from the site, and if you look in UT for Hermskii's servers, you will see he is 1 of the few that advertise it in the name.
Many servers use it, but players do not notice. This is why player think it is dead.

[Feralidragon]

@Chaos: Those would be good points IF the exact concern you raised yourself didn't exist: the Chaos version distributed with the game is outdated.
If the Chaos version that came with the GOTY version was the latest, then it would make it somewhat "standard", but it isn't, and that alone brings 2 issues:
1 - People will have to update it. Talking about renders, is a lot more likely that any player will update his render than update a mod he's not really aware about as being a mod in the first place.
2 - The update itself would either break existing maps made with the previous versions, or cause a ton of mismatches online.

So that not only makes Chaos be just like any other mod when it comes to mapping, it makes it a more troublesome one in fact, so I still see no reason to use it directly.
Again, is best if someone asked permission to them to rip their resources to a generic mapping package for anyone to use, despite having the mod or not, making Chaos itself just a nice mod to play with in those maps.

Look at Feralis weapons effects on things like the new Oversurrectors.
Circular and filled with meaningless symbols or runes. This removes any connection with human history or religions.

Yeah, that was pretty much the point.

There is a Nali rune set and even a Nali font I would encourage people to use more often.

Where? You mean in ChaosUT or somewhere else? I know there are just a few symbols in the standard texture packages (about 5 or 6 of them), but if there's an entire font of them I would like to know where to find it (although it's too late for me to use any of them by now though).

[Dr.Flay]

Hehe, yes I am aware of the catch-22.
But consider that only those who visit a UT, site or are told about it, update the renderers.
Same applies to the Master Servers.
I assume the same holds true for any modification not on the original CD, but we still tell them install it when they get here (whatever it is).

Oh-no, installing the final fixed Chaos mod does not break any maps. I challenge anyone to find an old Chaos map that does not work with 1.1.
No-one ever did anything other than make standard maps with skulls in, and let the mod swap the weapons. I've never even seen the animated decorations used, and the texture packs are not changed.
We have faster PCs now. We can use more resources and content in a map than ever. Most Chaos maps are over 10 years old and built for that era.
And the only reason for mismatches is the same as ever. The player or the server are out of date.
Simple cure, both be as updated as possible. Same as we do with any other part of our computing life.

People already often have to muck about after a clean GOTY install, with texture, mutator and BP fixes, so I simply include the Chaos and Rocket Arena updates as part of the rest of the normal updates. I see those 2 final versions as no different to the final UT patch and the 2 Bonus Pack fixes.

Actually if anyone were to add the later mod specific weapons into a map, they would still work on a server like Hermskiis, and for anyone who can play on it.
As his server is up-to-date, you cannot join with the old Chaos mod anyway.

... Damn. Back from a quick hunt at a couple of sites.
I'm sure the rune set was posted at UnrealSP or Oldunreal. I'll have a deeper-delve later. I don't think it was part of a mod or map, just a texture pack.
...Hmmm was it Skaarj ? (either way UnrealSP won't let me use nali or Skaarj to search with).
Google seems to be no help, so I'll have to hope I posted in the thread, or downloaded it.

[Feralidragon]

Someone who doesn't update the renders to better ones is more unlikely to update ChaosUT itself imo.
You're thinking from the usual "geek" point of view, instead of a normal player point of view. A normal player will just try to enter the server, have a mismatch, leave and never try again. Do you really think that a player will even bother looking into why he can't join a server when he has plenty of other ones available?

Nowadays almost every update for a PC is done in background, automatically, without the user being remotely aware about it, and thus there isn't the "update" concept anymore except for the people that know this kind of stuff already, so either you force it somehow (like most games do nowadays through launchers which seek for updates and won't start the game until there's confirmation that the game is up to date), or only a few will update it. It's easy to talk about the "cure", but the problem is that you have no effective way to apply it.

Furthermore, nowadays maps receive almost no attention at all (in case you didn't notice already), compared to other things, given the wide offer and already established maps in some gametypes, and the fact that most players are used to just play them online and choose them through the mapvote (and even so new maps are eerily difficult to get chosen even to try out), therefore considering that plenty don't download even the great maps released, a "you need to install/update ChaosUT to play this map" will be just a shot in the foot (and including the mods themselves with the maps is even worse, since then it may affect those who already installed it and tweaked it their own way, to not mention the filesize which seems to still be a problem to players nowadays).

Again, I think that a single ChaosUT mapping separate package that can actually be included in a map is a lot better than carrying the whole mod along, even because that way some may wonder about the map itself which may in fact lead to the mod itself, rather than the other way around.

As for the better PCs stuff, many of the people that play UT nowadays do not have that much good hardware. Furthermore, the engine itself makes having a better machine to be rendered almost irrelevant for the performance of the game given it's hard limits (some of which can be broken through native coding, but it's not something a mapper or most most modders would do).
Engines like UEngine2 are a lot more hardware dependent, to the point that theoretically the amount of detail in a map depends solely on the hardware, however the same is not true for UEngine1 given the way it's built and the way it renders stuff (although the new renders have been trying to improve that area to an extent), as the game will choke with a far lower amount of rendered stuff in UEngine1 than it would with any of its sequels (due to its bad usage of the available resources, although they can't be blamed due to the hardware and technology available back then).

[Red_Fist]

Is it possible to make a Chaos MH map pack ?

Using the weapons textures as such. I always liked those smiley grenade things you leave littered around in an area.

What is chaos ? for me it boiled down to just different weapons, some new deco but is still UT.

Err wait, I forgot that whole Chaos is a different gametype

[Dr.Flay]

It was (and is) a mod for Quake 3 Arena (our main rival in the early days).
It is both a full mod and also a mutator. You can use normal mutators in Chaos games, or Chaos mutators in normal games

Well Chaos has a back-story, a history, a history set in a blood-soaked future of arena combat and chaos.
The chaos warriors are stolen from their own time or dimension to fight for the amusement of the Chaos Gods.
To spice things up the chosen arena would have magic relics thrown in (This is actually where the relics in UT come from).

Chaos is gladiator combat for an evil and twisted ruler, who wants to see the pain and suffering in the ring (ouch !)
It is about dirty fighting in dirty environments.
There is no leage-ladder. It is your privilege to survive to fight for the pleasure of the Gods.
Chaos for UT2004 added CoOp monster games, and this was an early MH prototype for what we now use.
Chaos also encourages up-close fighting, so also features a variety of melee weapons.
Duel-mode in Chaos2K4 is the basis of Unreal Championships console game.

In short Chaos is basically "UT+" or "UT Extreme Edition".
"Normal" maps/locations are not suitable.
Sending the gladiators backwards and forwards in time, or some hellish nightmare of a trap-infested parallel dimension, is what you should think.

A lot of the early Chaos maps are just styled a certain way because of the Quake history. Lots of browns, oranges and reds... oh and skulls.
It does not have to be like that. Hell can come in many forms, and always biting and clawing.

And yes a MonsterHunt map would be very, very suitable for Chaos
It will please his majesty the Chaos King (who is a playable character in 2K4)

[Radi]

thanks for sharing that knowledge Doc! Really appreciate this .

[Red_Fist]

Well it don't seem to be a gametype either, I tried and there is no chaos gametype, so I loaded all the .u's it shown up, but won't work.
Seems it's a glorified mutator or something , I have no clue unless I pick chaos from the menu.

If I do get the gametype in the map, it complains about a ."Crown".

so you can't really make a Chaos map. I never did understand mutators, or how this stuff works.
I tried to shove a mutator actor in a map, never worked, always wondered how it can work for a default.

[papercoffee]

It came with a "king of the hill" game-type but only one map is included. (as far as I remember)
Maybe mapping for this game-type instead of the mod would be a better idea to boost the mod itself.
You have to implement the actor for the k.o.h game only and can still play it in any version of Chaos-UT.

[Dr.Flay]

There is mostly no need to map for a specific "gametype" as most of them are the same as normal.
If the mod is installed correctly then you should see this;

cut.png

Other than "KOTH" gametype, all Chaos maps can be made "normal", and then use the mutator or gametype to swap the weapons.
That way it can also be played with regular weapons and no Relics.
But then you don't have as much control over what weapons and ammo spawns.

Using the gametype or mutator, adds extras you don't map with, like coughing, farting and sneezing.
...oh and the ability to kick.
It also adds body-hit and bullet-travel sounds.

For mapping, it's a matter of design and style, rather than functionality.
You have a grappling-hook, so think about creating hard to reach spots you can swing or drop into rather than using teleports or lifts.
Chaos is as equally aimed at sniping, as it is melee.
Outside of the Time Splitters and Judge Dredd games, I think it is the only other place you find a bouncy-rifle.
If you are any good at pool or snooker, then the Chaos sniper rifle is the best thing ever.
The rocket-propelled rifle ammo will kill many if you can get them bunched together or in a line

The crossbow is rarely used properly as it is always randomly spawned. If you plan and map with it, it is a seriously deadly sniper weapon. explosive arrows are as powerful as the rocket launcher, and the poison arrows will make your enemy have to break cover to find health before they die.

Proxies are often under-used. They are tricky little fellas.
You could design a section where you need to pilot a proxy through a small gap to kill or activate something (people are often not aware they can be camera-guided like a redeemer).
Most people throw or launch them with the claw/grapple, but you can stick them on things.
I sometimes stick a few down the centre of a set of sliding double-doors, and where I just picked up some ammo .
If you also use the volatile ammo mutator, when an enemy comes to get the ammo as it next spawns, the proxy will detonate as they get close. Killing them instantly with a double overload of ammo-spamming death. My favourite is to booby-trap a razorblade spawn point in a corridor or room

As I said before, I think the 2004 version shows what Chaos is, better.
Many of the maps feel more like an arena, and a few are literally gladiator arenas.

Personally I always thought that the traps people used to add to Unreal and UT maps, were perfect for Chaos.
What is more chaotic than blundering into a deadly trap ?
Hmmm. Perhaps I could have just suggested "Traps and Easter-eggs" as a project ?

[Dr.Flay]

See original post for an old example of a simple Chaos Arena, "gladiator" map.
Enforcers and melee weapons only.
(Sorry for the double-post, but if I delete and remake the last post, I think I may lose the image.)