UnrealArchive.org

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OjitroC
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Re: UnrealArchive.org

Post by OjitroC » Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:24 pm

Dr.Flay wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:43 am
Can the Archive please have a folder dedicated to the work of MrLoathsome ?
Yes, that's a great idea - fits in with Shrimp's "I had the idea of hand-curated "collections" where anyone could put together collections of fun or interesting mods, maps, mutators, skins, etc....".

Could be done for other people who are no longer active for whatever reason but have 'made' lots of interesting stuff - FNB has a Zencoder/Ghandi/Britton Wesley collection on his site (the ghandi pack - at the bottom of the page) for example and it would be nice to see an archive of the work of JackGriffin.

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Re: UnrealArchive.org

Post by OjitroC » Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:05 pm

Corrections to :-

Mutators -> Unreal Tournament -> N -> Nali Weapons 3

Author : MrLoathsome

Umm?!!
Should, of course, be
Author : Feralidragon

Plus I don't think there are 40 weapons - the list given contains duplicates.

There's three or four things in the download section on MrLoathsome's site that weren't made by him and this is one of them (the others are video drivers and a UT demo manager).


Mutators -> Unreal Tournament -> U -> UTPostalBabes

Author = gopostal
Last edited by OjitroC on Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: UnrealArchive.org

Post by Shrimp » Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:12 pm

OjitroC wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:05 pm
Author : Feralidragon
:noidea

Fixed thanks.
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Re: UnrealArchive.org

Post by OjitroC » Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:24 pm

On the same theme, just noticed

Mutators -> Unreal Tournament -> N -> NW3 SSE - Ultra Gore

Author : Unknown

Again, the author should be Feralidragon.


Mutators -> Unreal Tournament -> L

The author for
Loathsomes Monster Tweak
Loathsomes Monster Tweak - Large
LoathsomesBotPack

should be MrLoathsome

AND
Loathsome Laser Arena - RC3 - Weapons None
Does actually have ONE weapon - the Loathsome Laser.

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Re: UnrealArchive.org

Post by Gustavo6046 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:57 pm

Don't bother with setting the author for GusPackII.u - I don't need that under my name.
"Everyone is an idea man. Everybody thinks they have a revolutionary new game concept that no one else has ever thought of. Having cool ideas will rarely get you anywhere in the games industry. You have to be able to implement your ideas or provide some useful skill. This also applies to mod authoring. If you become a skilled or notable mod author, you will find people propositioning you to implement their ideas. Never join a project whose idea man or leader has no obvious development skills. Never join a project that only has a web designer. You have your own ideas. Focus on them carefully and in small chunks and you will be able to develop cool projects."

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Re: UnrealArchive.org

Post by OjitroC » Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:17 am

Incomplete archives - the latest map upload on UA is a MH map missing two files. One is sinsnds.uax which people who have any Sin2UT stuff are likely to have and it is packaged with other maps on the site. The other missing file is Gatling2.u which doesn't appear to be on the site anywhere. In essence the latest map upload is unplayable for most people.

Is it possible to stop incomplete archives being uploaded or, at the very least, can the uploader be alerted to the fact that the archive is incomplete?

Where existing archives are incomplete and there are missing files, is it possible to provide a link to those 'missing' files that can be found elsewhere on the site? This would help to make more maps more easily playable for many people and would help reduce the number of archives which are, for practical purposes, of little or no use to many people.

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Re: UnrealArchive.org

Post by Barbie » Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:27 am

I'm afraid that notifying the uploader will not help in this special case. I have told him multiple times to use a tool like UnrealDeps.exe and gave other suggestions, all without success.
"Multiple exclamation marks," he went on, shaking his head, "are a sure sign of a diseased mind." --Terry Pratchett

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Re: UnrealArchive.org

Post by sektor2111 » Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:46 am

Too bad... which means that my proposal in adding something to show which maps are corrupted with duplicated actors won't see the daylight very soon.
Right now I was looking over a map-pack having maps which apparently are looking as good ones. They aren't that good as they do look like.
It's not exactly ON-Topic to discuss all screwed things from there.

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Re: UnrealArchive.org

Post by OjitroC » Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:36 pm

Coming back to incomplete archives with missing dependencies, I'm interested in what Shrimp thinks about blocking their upload?

I've no idea what the upload and posting process is but presumably when an archive is being uploaded, it can be checked to see if it is complete or if has missing dependencies, and if there are missing dependencies they can be checked to see if they are in an archive already on the site and/or if they are stock/default UT/Unreal files (a proportion of missing dependencies in existing archives on the site appear to be Unreal music files for example). If there are dependencies that are neither available on the site nor stock then the uploader should be informed that the archive can't be posted until the missing files are provided.

A further enhancement of the utility of site would be, as I've suggested before, to provide a link to a missing dependency - this would make more maps playable and would be easier for users as the site's current search function doesn't seem to search for .utx, .umx or .uax files - this kind of search has to be done using an external search engine which just adds a further layer to the process.

A pedantic note : the help text for the dependencies icon shows 'no dependencies' when the map has dependencies but these are provided in the map archive so it is somewhat inaccurate and potentially misleading. Presumably it should actually state 'no missing dependencies' (this would also be true when a map uses only stock assets which obviously do not need to be provided in the archive)?

Whilst it might be 'nice' to indicate which maps have duplicated actors, I doubt if the majority of the site's users would know what this means in the sense of understanding the implictations of this - so what are the practical implications? Does it render a map unplayable? What actors are duplicated as presumably this is germane to an understanding of the implications and consequences? The cognoscenti would get it but all this would need to be explained to the ordinary map user/player individually for each map with duplicate actors. This might be rather too complex a task for a website whose prrimary purpose is the archiving of content. There are other mapping errors that can have a significant impact on the playability of maps - fatal BSP holes are an example - should maps be checked for this and the results noted?

To me, however, it seems much more important that archives on the site are oganised and categorised correctly, if only for the sake of accuracy and the ease of finding files. To take but one example (which I've noted before) - if one looks at Voice Packs, there is one Unreal Voice Pack - in passing, this in itself should be enough to 'set off alarm bells', why only one when UT99 and UT2k4 have hundreds - but it might seduce the unwary into thinking "someone's found a way of using VPs in Unreal", download it and then find that it is, of course, for UT99. Conversely others may be deterred from looking at it at all as it is listed under Unreal. The same goes for Maps - so, for example, someone looking for Monster Match maps won't find any if they look for a Monster Match category as there isn't one though there is on other major file sites.
Last edited by OjitroC on Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: UnrealArchive.org

Post by sektor2111 » Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:34 pm

In my opinion the control over assets should be taken by people knowing what is about, and not by uploaders. We are already full-filled by mismatches and missing files.
OjitroC wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:36 pm
Whilst it might be 'nice' to indicate which maps have duplicated actors, I doubt if the majority of the site's users would know what this means in the sense of understanding the implictations of this - so what are the practical implications? Does it render a map unplayable? What actors are duplicated as presumably this is germane to an understanding of the implications and consequences?
Let me get a flashlight for a better brain-lightning.
I think I posted a server-crash log somewhere in XC topics around some of these things, I don't need to repeat that such map for me it's corrupted - I'm stating on this. X times I said: think at GarbageCollector called at server-travel - I don't see like anybody cares about important things :loool: .
What is the connected/linked problem ? A simple result, if mapper has no clue about these duplicated occurrences, definitely this might not be the only issue demonstrating a poor experience. You can check this yourself. A map with duplicated actors doesn't include one single bug. They might have geometry issues which a mutator won't really fix, or other problems that can be solved only with special tools. This might be one good sorting criteria preventing me to waste time looking at each UNR junk claimed map if file summary does a conclusive reporting.

More stuff ? Sure, actors like DistanceLightning found in map indicate that map has no NET support - it's a flickering trash in clients. For a server-admin hunting quality this is a NO WAY + other properties screwed by Mapper and making a mess ON-Line - if we talk about info posted, if not we can discard poor information inconclusive about quality Levels.
CTF and CloudZone - veeery entertaining for 16 Players to break game, no doubt.

Bot support said yes because map has reachSpecs. I think I can sample a MH map full of reachSpecs and USELESS for any pawn - that's not accurate in any way, I would like to see more other extra-info without downloading X files. We also know what CTF map is that without incoming paths at FlagBase actors - Here for CTFGame definitely Bot doesn't work well because it's obvious.
Not everything which is having hair is a dog - like not any map with reachSpecs means that has Bot Support. Not to forget maps having a Z axis play but no single jumpy combo.
Last edited by sektor2111 on Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: UnrealArchive.org

Post by OjitroC » Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:08 pm

I have no doubt that maps with duplicated actors have problems but the point is - the problems would need to be identified and their seriousness outlined and quantified in a manner clearly understandable by everyone, not just those with specialised knowledge. Put simply, if I see an icon telling me a map has duplicated actors I want to know how that is going to affect me when playing the map - you would want to know what specific actors are duplicated, how many of them there are, etc, etc.

The main issue is whether this kind of check and reporting is something which it is reasonable to expect an archive of UT content to do (assuming, of course, that it is possible to do it in an error free manner)? The caveat on the site's front page "Unreal Archive makes no guarantees as to the functionality, suitability, integrity, or safety of the content listed here" suggests it is not.

Still it will be interesting to have Shrimp's reaction to this.

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Re: UnrealArchive.org

Post by sektor2111 » Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:11 pm

Duplicated Actors = might be a Low level Mapping auto-completed CheckBox.
Perhaps Low Level Mapping for some admins might need an English to English translation - and a stupid UT networking manual...
The rest should be some words/symbols/colors explained in a Legend Section of the main Web-page linked from every single Map description and then interested users will have a clue what is about.
- Contains No Net actors;
- Contains screwed actors - Not seen in Networking or spam actors;
- Contains PlayerStarts into void - rejects Player - some servers are having this auto-fixed;
- DM with CTFflags spamming errors;
- Empty map - no weapons;
- No brushes in map;
- Has MyLevel Assets; - I'm 200 × times interested about creative stuff;
- etc.

Okay, I'm moving for checking/writing other features in MapGarbage because... it "amazes" me what I see in maps - not shown in downloading pages.

Edit:
Then quote:
UnrealArchiveOrg wrote: You download and use the content listed and hosted here at your own risk, Unreal Archive makes no guarantees as to the functionality, suitability, integrity, or safety of the content listed here.
can be completed by:
"We are doing a minimal script-based check for Maps. A couple of such tests Might Be conclusive if map is suitable for server needs vs home user needs. Certain actors are not working properly ON-Line and then you might have unexpected effects in your client players. It is advisable to ask help or do a basic check yourself at these assets. Consider this as advice, decision in using these flagged packages it's yours."

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Re: UnrealArchive.org

Post by OjitroC » Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:31 pm

But if the check is minimal and merely resolves to the need for people to check the maps themselves before using them then is the additional level of complexity introduced by muliple symbols and explanations actually worth it? Will it serve to illuminate or merely to confuse the uninitiated?

Why just maps - there's lots of info that could be provided for all the content types (random examples : VPs - how many sounds for each sound type, are there sounds for all the orders and Other slots, etc; models - do they hold weapons, do they hold weapons correctly; mutators - what do they do? do they work in all circumstances; etc, etc) which would allow users to decide if they want to download a particular archive. Of course, one of the interesting things about this kind of site is to discover that kind of info for oneself - the same with maps as a player.

Let's get back to my initial point about whether there is an easy way to deal with missing dependencies (as, if there are missing dependencies and these aren't available on UA or elsewhere, there is little point in checking or downloading a map in the first place - or if they are on UA, can they be linked to?).

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Re: UnrealArchive.org

Post by Shrimp » Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:57 pm

OjitroC wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:36 pm
Coming back to incomplete archives with missing dependencies, I'm interested in what Shrimp thinks about blocking their upload?
At worst, It might be interesting to show a warning for the uploader and allow them to continue or not, but not outright blocking uploads which have missing dependencies.

For example there are maps for gametypes which don't yet have representation in the system, so you'd never be able to upload those.
OjitroC wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:36 pm
A further enhancement of the utility of site would be, as I've suggested before, to provide a link to a missing dependency - this would make more maps playable and would be easier for users as the site's current search function doesn't seem to search for .utx, .umx or .uax files - this kind of search has to be done using an external search engine which just adds a further layer to the process.
I'd like to add something like this, it's just a question of getting the time to sit down and do it. I've had several ideas for automatically resolving dependencies and even repackaging files with all their dependencies included based on what can be found elsewhere in the archive, it's just a bunch of work that needs to be planned and done.

Each dependency on a file already has a "providedBy" attribute, since dependencies were first introduced, which is intended to link to other content which contains dependencies if they're missing. I recently spent several days refactoring a lot of code to start moving things toward being able to make proper use of this.
OjitroC wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:36 pm
A pedantic note : the help text for the dependencies icon shows 'no dependencies' when the map has dependencies but these are provided in the map archive so it is somewhat inaccurate and potentially misleading. Presumably it should actually state 'no missing dependencies' (this would also be true when a map uses only stock assets which obviously do not need to be provided in the archive)?
Seems like a bug, that current help text doesn't make a lot of sense, will fix.
OjitroC wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:36 pm
Whilst it might be 'nice' to indicate which maps have duplicated actors, I doubt if the majority of the site's users would know what this means in the sense of understanding the implictations of this - so what are the practical implications? Does it render a map unplayable? What actors are duplicated as presumably this is germane to an understanding of the implications and consequences? The cognoscenti would get it but all this would need to be explained to the ordinary map user/player individually for each map with duplicate actors. This might be rather too complex a task for a website whose prrimary purpose is the archiving of content. There are other mapping errors that can have a significant impact on the playability of maps - fatal BSP holes are an example - should maps be checked for this and the results noted?
I actually have no idea what a duplicated actor is, what the effect of such may be, how it manifests and how it may be detected by reading package contents.

Similarly for a lot of the other issues mentioned.

I'm interested in trying to provide useful and interesting metadata gleaned from map data available, as it enhances the vale of the archive somewhat, especially in years time when someone's looking through the data, hopefully it grants some useful insight into the contents, or perhaps helps filtering things based on someone else's projects, etc. A lot of this information may just end up being represented by an icon or something indicating "There may be problems with this content" or something, since to a lot of people a lot of the things discussed here so far are rather low level, as has been mentioned.

Again however, this just comes down to finding the time to build it, and looking at what may be interesting aspects to indes. Unfortunately I don't hold 21 years of known mapping problems and permutation in my head so I don't know any of this stuff until it's actually suggested or brought up - and importantly has some description of specifically what it means and what I'd have to look for within package files to realise.
OjitroC wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:36 pm
To me, however, it seems much more important that archives on the site are oganised and categorised correctly, if only for the sake of accuracy and the ease of finding files. To take but one example (which I've noted before) - if one looks at Voice Packs, there is one Unreal Voice Pack - in passing, this in itself should be enough to 'set off alarm bells', why only one when UT99 and UT2k4 have hundreds - but it might seduce the unwary into thinking "someone's found a way of using VPs in Unreal", download it and then find that it is, of course, for UT99. Conversely others may be deterred from looking at it at all as it is listed under Unreal. The same goes for Maps - so, for example, someone looking for Monster Match maps won't find any if they look for a Monster Match category as there isn't one though there is on other major file sites.
I agree that categorisation and organisation is a primary concern. Everything currently on the website that's not simply a collection of plain text links to mirrored content are features above and beyond the original scope of the system. The idea is and always will be, primarily, to try to find and index as much user made content as possible and make sure it's reachable in some form or another, for the next 20 years. Everything beyond that is a "nice-to-have".

This is not to say I'm not interested in building additional features and functionality, as I do think enriching the content with additional metadata where it makes sense adds to the long term value of the content database. Things like dependency tracking is obviously of significant value for archival purposes.

The main issue, as pointed out above, is simply my time to get everything done.

I do not want to really be the quality police, and do things like throw away content with missing dependencies for example, because it's not unreasonable to consider that in time, someone may well introduce tooling to at least work around things like broken/missing references (I can see this happening easily enough with direct package editing - to recover this sort of content). It may not be of much playable value to us right now, but it may well be recoverable by determined individuals.
sektor2111 wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:11 pm
Duplicated Actors = might be a Low level Mapping auto-completed CheckBox.
Perhaps Low Level Mapping for some admins might need an English to English translation - and a stupid UT networking manual...
The rest should be some words/symbols/colors explained in a Legend Section of the main Web-page linked from every single Map description and then interested users will have a clue what is about.
- Contains No Net actors;
- Contains screwed actors - Not seen in Networking or spam actors;
- Contains PlayerStarts into void - rejects Player - some servers are having this auto-fixed;
- DM with CTFflags spamming errors;
- Empty map - no weapons;
- No brushes in map;
- Has MyLevel Assets; - I'm 200 × times interested about creative stuff;
- etc.
These are some interesting additional things to look into flagging, thanks.
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Re: UnrealArchive.org

Post by OjitroC » Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:32 pm

Thanks for that lengthy and considered response :tu:. I appreciate that finding the time to do stuff is an issue and would simply reiterate that the site is a great and uniquely useful resource for which, I for one, continue to be grateful.

Sektor's MapGarbage tool (which is linked to on this forum - see 15#p126670) may be worth looking at - it's an UEd tool but might offer ideas on how to read map packages for the thiings he mentions.

In terms of useful metadata that could be gleaned from maps, one thing that occurs to me is map size (basically the playable area). True one can use the recommended player load as a guide but a proportion of maps don't have this information and if they do, it is not always a reliable guide. I've no idea what data on size can be gleaned from a map package but as an example MapRaider has five size categories and it may be possible to do something like this. Again I have no idea whether users would find this useful.

UPDATE
The help text doesn't seem to come up when hovering over the images icon in Map Packs (I tried some Unreal and UT ones) though it does for the single UT maps.