Map Recommendation

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EvilGrins
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Map Recommendation

Post by EvilGrins » Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:44 pm

This is one of Frag-n-Brag's:
https://unrealarchive.org/maps/unreal-t ... f4838.html

Map uses warp zones, so it looks like 1 base is directly over the other. I made an edit with UTDMW Warlords to see if they flew high enough if they'd wind up on the other side, but that didn't go over so well. Monsters don't tend to handle warp zones that well, and apparently these flying bots are not much different.

Still, this is an amazing map. It's worth checking out.
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sektor2111
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Re: Map Recommendation

Post by sektor2111 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:05 pm

I checked it.
It's a good looking thing, Lights, bases, geometry concept.

Bot Pathing has ANNOYING issues. JumpSpots nearby flags should be TranslocDest actors and LiftExits from these combos at bottom should be TranslocStart, otherwise Bots are failing to use ImpactHammer and failing to jump to the lower spot in lower skill because LiftExit is too far for jumping.
FlawedCombos.PNG
They were playing good minutes without any score falling with Flags in Lava and dying, nothing fascinating here.

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Re: Map Recommendation

Post by OjitroC » Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:35 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:05 pm
They were playing good minutes without any score falling with Flags in Lava and dying, nothing fascinating here.
That's odd - I watched a 6 minutes match in which there were 5 captures - quite a few bots did fall in the lava but I suppose that is the point - the smarter bots used other routes to and from the flags; some had the jump boots and jumped with these from the lower level onto the flag base, whilst several tranlocated onto the flag base. They did sometimes try to impact jump from the flag base but didn't always succeed.

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Re: Map Recommendation

Post by sektor2111 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:49 pm

Try more Levels of difficulty and even "classic" game setting. Not hyper-speed or such. Not a single time Bot was floating in lava with flag. Honestly ? I don't need a Bot from my team to fail bringing Flag at Home - neither to be killed by a rocket fired through warp...
Paths there need TranslocDest and TranslocStart - that's why BotPack has them and this is CTF.

Why I'm saying these ? Because right now I tested them and are working perfectly, map went smaller and less loaded with reachspecs (334 instead of 800+). WarpZoneMarkers from top have been eliminated as long as they don't have any use at once with their paths. Original was renamed with "old" extension, from now on I'll play my edit.

As for other routes, that was some combat code for retreating, then the shortest road went out of combos having 500 + 500 distance. There is nothing smarter at any Bot, the base Bot class has the same Intelligence and is root for all Bots, except some of my versions moving a bit faster and jumping more far - not very fair and I removed those capabilities.

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Re: Map Recommendation

Post by OjitroC » Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:13 am

sektor2111 wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:49 pm
There is nothing smarter at any Bot, the base Bot class has the same Intelligence and is root for all Bots, except some of my versions moving a bit faster and jumping more far ....
No, I realise that - it was just a jocular way of putting it - not really meant to be taken seriously - I should have indicated that.

Another game of just under 6 minutes with 3 captures, all by the Red team - 10 bots on masterful as recommended by FNB - game setting hardcore. Seemed pretty OK to me. Making it easier to get over the lava negates the point in having it there to some extent. Surely one of the points of the warp is that players/bots can be killed by rockets fired through it - that's very much a part of the intended gameplay according to FNB's readme. Still we have slightly differing views about CTF which is fair enough.

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Re: Map Recommendation

Post by sektor2111 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:28 am

When Pawn moves faster due to game settings vs Skill (difficulty) it's normal to jump more far - here it's not happening at all Levels. Translocator works for Any Level and it doesn't force carrier to follow dangerous path with no purpose.

JumpSpot has it's rules of use and placement not really described in too many tutorials and I could see other maps having flaws here because some other people are not understanding Physics generally and so Unreal Physics. A JumpSpot doesn't have only paths heading to it, it has paths on the way back and this might do issues because Next Point as LiftExit don't include any stunt directives for A.I. when it comes to long or high jumps.

In this case, in order to follow the logic of movement physics, for Path heading from JumpSpot to the lower LiftExit, that reachSpec should be deleted/unreferenced - it's too FAR, and not safe all time for use. Unfortunately on a way, other hyper-jumps (impossible to navigate) are done with XC builder but... PathsLinker is capable to solve ALL problems because map is accepting UGold Editing. As long as I'm having technology for doing such fine tuning, I don't see why not improving these Levels. The rest of paths are GREAT, map is very well executed so it would not be nice to complain about them.

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Re: Map Recommendation

Post by Que » Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:54 am

@Sektor2111

perhaps you can post your edits here like map with better botpathing would be great.
>>> PSYCHOSERVERS <<< Address: 116.251.192.212 Port: 7760

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Re: Map Recommendation

Post by OjitroC » Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:44 am

Que wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:54 am
@Sektor2111

perhaps you can post your edits here like map with better botpathing would be great.
It would be appropriate to ask FraGnBraG first - he is a member of this forum and can be easily contacted.

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Re: Map Recommendation

Post by FraGnBraG » Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:10 pm

@Sektor2111 - he heh ya'll know that's a 300K map? iirc a concept map made really fast for a Unreal Playground Blito3 contest.. Although that type of Warpzone map has been done before many times by others in ut99 history, it was intended to provide a CTF that was a bit different in the contest. Not making excuses here -but- it certainly could have had better testing but "time constraints" as always. good points on the transloc actors ... ya i was a bit lazy there :what: :lol2:

Thanks for taking the time to revisit it. I enjoy reading the results of your "deep dives" in problem solving maps, always some surprises you find in there. If you want to post/publish a fixed version please feel free. Just call it "v2" or somesuch somewhere in the name, so no confusion with existing. I think you do that anyways. Just include edited readme file in the archive. put your name in the author field if you like...

Cheers

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Re: Map Recommendation

Post by sektor2111 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:50 pm

Let me think if worth leaving a few other paths here... I'm doing here a test to myself. The test means reducing map's charge as much as possible. Here I think I can say that I'm probing more Editors than maps...
UEd from 436/440
UEd from 451 - less usage... I'm sorry here...
UEd from 469 - interesting, pretty interesting...
UEd from UGold227 - it's a nice one, no kidding. I was waiting some of these features in UT but...

Edit: For the record - and those spreading myths about items missing/collected considered that they are ruining navigation, this is one of those maps demonstrating that you don't need so many PathNodes (we do have only 4 PathNodes here), InventorySpot actor it's a good replacement and it works exactly as described by Polge in his old documents... In a DM match if Bot is not moving it's because has no purpose not because items removed were deleting paths. In CTFGame goal is different, as in Domination, Assault, MonsterHunt and similar games based on objectives not based on items.

Right now this 300 map is... a 300 map:
- under 300 kilobytes;
- under 300 reachSpecs.

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Re: Map Recommendation

Post by papercoffee » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:51 pm

Then, you're going to release it? You version.

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Re: Map Recommendation

Post by sektor2111 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:55 pm

It's not mine... but if you really want to see it I'll drop it around. Perhaps I considered not needed doing this since Oijtroc said that original version works fine as described in read-me where was forgot the mention that other settings for low skilled bots won't really help that much as long as they can be easily fooled anyway with translocator through top warps... and then, making them more dumber based on wrong pathing choice was not an answer. The rest of map's design it's showing a good work and solid knowledge about doing geometry.
Another reason to look around it was exactly contest theme: Small map. In 2020 we do have to demonstrate that the level of knowledge and newer assets used can make such a map even smaller than a map with brushes stripped - oldskool methods, by getting rid of useless bytes and map do looks identical with original contest map - a sort of sample of cleaning a map for using less resources as possible. Maybe in 2030 we might have another things (compressors, etc.), I won't try predictions here.

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Re: Map Recommendation

Post by OjitroC » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:38 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:55 pm
It's not mine... but if you really want to see it I'll drop it around. Perhaps I considered not needed doing this since Oijtroc said that original version works fine as described in read-me where was forgot the mention that other settings for low skilled bots won't really help that much as long as they can be easily fooled anyway with translocator through top warps... and then, making them more dumber based on wrong pathing choice was not an answer. The rest of map's design it's showing a good work and solid knowledge about doing geometry.
Another reason to look around it was exactly contest theme: Small map. In 2020 we do have to demonstrate that the level of knowledge and newer assets used can make such a map even smaller than a map with brushes stripped - oldskool methods, by getting rid of useless bytes and map do looks identical with original contest map - a sort of sample of cleaning a map for using less resources as possible. Maybe in 2030 we might have another things (compressors, etc.), I won't try predictions here.
Don't be put off by what I said - I'm sure people will be interested to see what you have done - not least on cleaning the map to use less resources.

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Re: Map Recommendation

Post by sektor2111 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:37 pm

Mmm... yep, in some "hunt" combat situation Bots might be charging at enemy ignoring all Paths, their common fighting habit, this doesn't mean that map has blind spots from which a Pawn cannot enter into network, map works because it was tested a few times. If Bot has a funky reaction maybe it's time for another Bot Level less dumber. For navigating here because map it's simple I did not added AlternatePaths - to me it doesn't look like it needs them.
And then... at this time - year 2020 - I could make this small map a bit more smaller with less navigation data to be processed, and for Bots even in lower difficulty Skills.
Hit me with conclusions toward this edit:
CTF-300K-I-C-U_R2020.7z
(257.93 KiB) Downloaded 11 times
305540 bytes went to 281712 bytes. Perhaps in a future which I cannot predict, we will have some extension using a default compressing system, helping admins in building servers via FTP... Who knows ?

Edit: Other
CTF-((Apo))ARC_PlaTIDUS_R2020 it's also done if any of you wants to try it. In water zones Bots have their issues. I don't know if map needs more paths in lower area, in water more exactly, there are a few routes for resuming navigation in case of a long fall... It looks challenging with high skilled Bots On-Line.

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Re: Map Recommendation

Post by sektor2111 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:24 pm

Here is an attempt at describing how to modify paths/reachspecs using builders, UT, UGold227 and map will work in UT as well - see previous posted map, manually adjusted.
Map's Navigation Changes - PathsLinker working samples.
If you don't believe that it was adjusted manually, rebuild paths and compare the newer result with initial paths network.

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