New maps from UTzone

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EvilGrins
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New maps from UTzone

Post by EvilGrins » Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:42 am

Last edited by EvilGrins on Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2 new maps from UTzone

Post by sektor2111 » Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:05 am

Thanks, EG. I'll fix lifts in that CTF map, it's a good one, too bad it has paths through walls LOL :loool: . And Lift Paths have not too much in common with Lifts... which are Doors.
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Re: 2 new maps from UTzone

Post by Gustavo6046 » Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:07 am

Psst, I'll bump onto you, and you'll open timed, okay? :D

Hey, it's better than standing on you! Hehe!

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Re: 2 new maps from UTzone

Post by EvilGrins » Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:26 am

sektor2111 wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:05 am
Thanks, EG. I'll fix lifts in that CTF map, it's a good one, too bad it has paths through walls LOL :loool: . And Lift Paths have not too much in common with Lifts... which are Doors.
Yeah, I noted issues with the lifts in a review I posted over there · https://www.utzone.de/forum/showpost.ph ... ostcount=2

Are those the same things you meant?
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Re: 2 new maps from UTzone

Post by sektor2111 » Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:09 pm

Pretty well noticed - I did not tested map I just observed goofing in Editor after a few seconds... Usually I'm not testing anything in that case as long as I can predict what sort of Lifts are there. Details checked later have confirmed my first assumptions, I mean deductions:
#1 LiftTag is the same everywhere = Garbage;
#2 Lifts don't have corresponding LiftTag = this is Bot kidnapping attempt;
#3 Lift don't need to be bumped like doors or buttons you need to STAND on them and here it goes Initial state STANDOpenTimed. Bot will move a button if it wants that and player won't do this - it's frustrating in other maps - see CTF-Mafia - that's Bot Mafia (whatever tutorial called it "Bot Trivia"), you die crushed at those long lifts, when Bot is jerking, also check out something like "Black Mover Pink Mover" in forum and see what does Bot there... (Yeah, Gusty, see what Bot does with movers... and no, you cannot bump them without taking damage due to mover's location but they do that when they want to...) I don't think I need to spread another sample about a Lift which is button and to see what's going on, it's redundant.

One little tiny small short story for dummies:
Guys if you want to learn how to setup a Lift just LOOK AT DAMN DECK16][. Are you blind ? Good... (oops, not good), select LiftExit and LiftCenter and other LiftExit from top of one lift and then select Lift too. Go To menu Edit COPY. Now open a Notepad and PASTE Selection.
Go check IDENTICAL VALUES for Navigationpoints and Mover and Mover setup - Yeah, I know, COPY PASTE usage might need tutorials too :ironic: . Yeah, after 20 years of UT setting up lifts in maps is full Rocket Science even with stock samples already done.
Each Lift NEED its OWN LiftTag and Tag and not combined Each-Other like here and generating impossible paths through walls with BAD reachSpecs. It's more easy to check a good stock map (where Bot works properly) instead of reading X pages of text, which are not even describing more details about those paths.

Off-Topic byte
For speeding up these, future November MapGarbage update can do the settings for 4 selected combo actors - Mover+LE+LC+LE giving them proper tags (also for combos without lifts). Also there is another capability for setting up LiftTriggers where situation is requesting a Trigger - similar to MH-Demons][ map. Lift starting in low position will have trigger around LiftCenter - must be Selected - push button - trigger is added instantly at LiftCenter and mover's initial state is changed. Top LiftExit (also selected) will have added a trigger accordingly - only one at time. All it needs is polishing collision cylinder for trigger based on Human visibility and not a scripted visibility.
/Off-Topic byte

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Re: 2 new maps from UTzone

Post by Gustavo6046 » Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:37 am

We need more resources for learning UT mapping and modding. Unreal Wiki is consistently down and UT99 related documentation there is Legacy and immutable, basically just archival.

We need a new wiki. Heck, maybe borrow some space from the OldUnreal wiki! There is so much benefit that could come from this!

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Re: 2 new maps from UTzone

Post by EvilGrins » Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:28 am

Gustavo6046 wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:37 am
We need more resources for learning UT mapping and modding.
Start here:
https://unreal-games.livejournal.com/tag/unrealed
http://unreal-games.livejournal.com/
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Re: 2 new maps from UTzone

Post by sektor2111 » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:21 pm

Agree that whatever Wiki-Tutorial things should be here as a whole separate section - in hoping that will be read. Why ? Because even it's a separate section called "XC_Engine" we do still have users asking "What is XC_Engine ?". It's a shameful ignorance, it's in... right in front of you and still asking... but I might expect someday to see them asking here what is ut99.org, heck knows... I think here is needed a small I.Q. test plugin at subscription... No pass = No spam crap posting and dumb questions.
__________
Back at "the two" maps.
Let me see... CTF map works as it is with current geometry but definitely with navigation reduced and fixed. Lifts are not that used because are "BEHIND" -> long paths = other shortest paths are used. For using Lifts, there are needed a few AlternatePaths connected at lower area R_Walk + R_Jump = reachFlag 9. Lifts also can be changed for supporting brainless Sliths and LesserBrutes - for custom CTF games and "Aliens". Jumpy routes can head even at RocketLancher making navigation a bit less predictable.
Adr_PlainImage.PNG
else spoken
Adr_XCImage.PNG
All paths are "BLUE" types and no special flag used (I'm calling these for real "improved paths" and not Multiplied Paths defined as improved paths).
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Re: 2 new maps from UTzone

Post by Gustavo6046 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:58 am

sektor2111 wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:21 pm
Because even it's a separate section called "XC_Engine" we do still have users asking "What is XC_Engine ?".
Hey now. XC_Engine is a confusing thing and many people don't know what it is or does or why it's useful or cool. And I REALLY don't think mappers need to know about it, better to target the stock game as that's what most people play on anyway.

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Re: 2 new maps from UTzone

Post by sektor2111 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:04 am

Gustavo6046 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:58 am
And I REALLY don't think mappers need to know about it,
Demonstrating here that you have never used XC_PathsBuilder/XC_Cleaner/BrushToMesh and advantage of this builder in bigger maps and how to deal with UE1 limitations and crapped up loops - I'm sorry for your lack of understanding :( . This is exactly the stage when they don't learn anything. As a side effect, an UT map runs just fine in plain 436 even with paths which XC was doing and it won't require anything in a plain install, yes, mapped with XC and running without XC, even if I'm saying this 100 times you won't get it. Maps pathed different won't include original loops which is disappointing for those which are loving junks, indeed is a loss for them.

In other hand: Did anyone else said "Modern Times" ? Ahem, "Modern Times" with Paths Automated and done by Devs written in 1999 and even before - very "modern" no wonder.

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Re: 2 new maps from UTzone

Post by Gustavo6046 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:42 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:04 am
Gustavo6046 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:58 am
And I REALLY don't think mappers need to know about it,
Demonstrating here that you have never used XC_PathsBuilder/XC_Cleaner/BrushToMesh and advantage of this builder in bigger maps and how to deal with UE1 limitations and crapped up loops - I'm sorry for your lack of understanding :(
There are all sorts of nifty tools, but a good craftsman only needs the tools he feels most comfortable and productive with. I have used the XC_PathsBuilder, but I am perfectly fine with the vanilla one too. Although I do think XC_PathsBuilder is objectively better and should be used more, I don't think the vanilla one should be phased out, and using the standard one is perfectly fine, for newer mappers or seasoned ones alike.

UE1 "limitations" and "crapped up loops" will always be there, you can't kill them all. It's bad mold, my friend. Welcome to 90s code! Unless you try to re-implement the engine from scratch. Yeah, people tried. But you probably can do it on your own - you're a hardcore programmer! :-D

Nonetheless, you are often really, really condescending and perhaps a bit egocentric (more than me somehow!). For instance here it really shows!
sektor2111 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:04 am
[...] yes, mapped with XC and running without XC, even if I'm saying this 100 times you won't get it.
Yes I already figured you meant that, but I'm not talking about compatibility, but rather whether those tools are really that fundamental when it comes to simply making a map for Unreal Tournament that people can enjoy. Assuming the mapper can do paths properly, anyway. Hey, not their fault if documentation is scarce and hard to find nowadays!

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Re: 2 new maps from UTzone

Post by sektor2111 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:06 pm

Gustavo6046 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:42 pm
UE1 "limitations" and "crapped up loops" will always be there
Disagree, Unreal is not UT - not all time, if you are inside with all data - inside arrays and getting rid of "Unreal -> UT" bits you'll have another deal, less processing, etc. They did things incomplete in UT and then, as solution for preventing loops in overcrowded spots, there are... more solutions:
- reducing the load;
- deleting incomplete internal chains which Unreal doesn't have but added in UT later and not finished.
Condition "n > 1000" is one thing, but... we can sit UNDER 1000 and under that "500", it's not hard to do that. When map is accomplishing certain conditions, these are taking place, if map is not feeding bad devs routines, they won't spread damage - different said, we can "dodge from shock combos".
Reducing load is doable already - XC does this natively. Deleting chained junks also is doable - and not editing each node, but using Tools in a blink. Result is clean and full operational. I even think that I can get rid of what Assault logs in stock maps too... but that's another story. I have another map to path before setting up a tiny demo with some paths NOT visible each-other but functional, as long as navigation stories from tutorials should be detonated in dust and pieces - more exactly well explained, in 2020 we can have more assets for what is doable here if we understand movement logic, you'll see what I mean. I'd rather prefer to keep discussion around these two maps and not going elsewhere.

I think CTF version can be used now in public, textures look fine, environment looks great, all sort of "guards" can manage to crawl around.
I'm going to drop an eye over the other... DM map, at first very quick check it did not show more troubles... and then, I need a more detailed check.

Edit: Checked - result = No thanks.

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Re: 2 new maps from UTzone

Post by Red_Fist » Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:38 am

The thing you should keep in mind is, other people just use the editor to make maps.
I am very pissed at the bots, but I only use what they got.

What I would do with all that is to use it to make stock pathing better, all those green lines..But I have no clue how to use it XC .

You do a great job, why? because I know that you know that bots are so good, then bad,,,,maybe :lol2:
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Re: 2 new maps from UTzone

Post by sektor2111 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:36 pm

If you are understanding physics effects in certain spot, you'll figure what placement will need nodes there and if map doesn't need extra-help using triggers/kickers, etc. Plain pathing issues are coming from LOGIC sources:
- we have lifts problems because Deck16 is heavy to be open and read in Editor - FALSE - anybody can do that;
- we have Editor spitting paths using some clumsy big baboon pawn as tester and Editor Environment is not 100% matching Game Environment + poorly written routines. This is why manual control does good fixes and flushing their plain toilette.
Game depending on difficulty level might have paths expanded a bit, Editor won't really help - see posting with "paths over boxes". There people should use combos, but as you can see... combos are myths for them - demonstrating that they don't read too much and neither thinking too much, PathNode on a Lift Mover is their normal way of doing - WRONG by default. Else, we have some "unique" LiftTag as explained in whatever "tutorial" which is not explaining properly about an unique LiftTag for this Combo-Triad and not for all Combos from in map.
The lack of explanations are direct bugs resources. This CTF map supports Bots very well, Lifts were making a mess. For extra moves, custom paths well checked in game might drop more "+" to the map. If no one wants to work with other more newer assets I'm curious then why are we asking about Editor Tools and extra features if we are not using them ? Does it worth writing builders for Editing Maps for being ignored 98-99% ? To summarize in 2020 we do have almost everything for paths, all we need it's more tools for geometry - too bad I do not have access at those assets with UScript...
I would check planes/polys for collision, selected vertex reporting and that stuff...

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New maps from UTzone

Post by EvilGrins » Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:38 am

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