UT99 stuff by Barbie

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UT99 stuff by Barbie

Postby Barbie » Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:44 pm

Beside other stuff I published the ready-to-run fixes for some maps I run on BarbiesWorld. See http://www.msdatec.de/projects/ut99/ for details.
"Multiple exclamation marks," he went on, shaking his head, "are a sure sign of a diseased mind." --Terry Pratchett
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Re: UT99 stuff by Barbie

Postby UTPe » Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:09 pm

Hi Barbie, thanks for sharing ! :o
Personal UT99 website: http://utdatabase.gamezoo.org | Personal forum: http://fragfinity.freeforums.org/index.php
Personal file database: http://ut99files.gamezoo.org | Personal map database: http://ut99maps.gamezoo.org
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Re: UT99 stuff by Barbie

Postby JackGriffin » Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:16 pm

If you want the source code for the Seeker/Sniper stuff just let me know. This was better though:
http://www.moddb.com/mods/redeemer-mania
It contains everything in the mod you were playing with and more, source included.
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Re: UT99 stuff by Barbie

Postby Barbie » Thu May 12, 2016 2:57 am

Some more fixed maps are available since last announcment:
  • MH-Bluff+SBFix
  • MH-SkaarjDungeon+SBFix
  • MH-NewAlc1+SBFix
  • MH-Ziki+SBFix
  • MH-DarkestHour+SBFix
  • CTF-LakeCyanide+SBFix
  • MH-HouseOfPsychos+SBMod
  • MH-DKDCrater+SBFix
Reasons for fixes and change log are available in their info files.

Some small mapping goodies are on that page, too.
"Multiple exclamation marks," he went on, shaking his head, "are a sure sign of a diseased mind." --Terry Pratchett
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Re: UT99 stuff by Barbie

Postby JackGriffin » Thu May 12, 2016 9:34 am

I know you have the best of intentions but you ought to consider some stuff as you move forward. I looked at your changelogs and the vast majority of your changes could be done via a single mutator that loads, checks for the map's name, then makes whatever changes in Post. The main exception is spawning Playerstarts but that's not nearly reason enough to create all new maps.

Look in some of the remaining public redirects or map download places. There are already maps with 8-10 versions, fixes, clan tags, etc. It's messy and admins have no idea what map does what. You are adding to that noise.

I posted a mod called "gopostalRYSfix" that is a single class mutator that you could easily rework for 90% of your map changes. The added benefit is you can make changes as often as you like and admins only need to update a single file no matter how many maps you process. You can also allow them to use/not use certain changes that may sway more towards your personal choice on how a map should be played.

I did exactly what you are doing years ago and it still bothers me now to see some of my "fix" maps still floating around. It would have been so much better for the community if I had listened to 3 way back then when he spoke to me like I am to you. I just didn't really understand at the time.

Finally, please reconsider forcing the map gametype setting to MonsterHunt.MonsterHunt when no gametype is listed. By doing this you create potential conflict with the map being able to be used in other mods. It's way better to leave this blank and let the unique map prefix identify the map as monsterhunt.
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Re: UT99 stuff by Barbie

Postby Barbie » Thu May 12, 2016 4:24 pm

I looked at your changelogs and the vast majority of your changes could be done via a single mutator
Yes, I prefer this way also and as mentioned elsewhere here about 1/3 of my base mutator code is for patching maps :-/ If you have a look at Fix reasons for that map you'll notice that in nearly all cases that cannot be done by server side code: HoMs, void areas, duplicate actor names, mover KeyNums, BSP not built, embedded code not compiled, ... And if I have such a map on my work bench, I try to improve some other little things beside fixing the main problem, and recording all these little changes builds up the major part of the change log.

Look in some of the remaining public redirects or map download places. There are already maps with 8-10 versions, fixes, clan tags, etc. It's messy and admins have no idea what map does what.
I see mess starting already at a lower stage: ZIP (or other archive format files) that in fact are not archives (Example), archives containing crap (see Lousy Map Package Archives for an example), missing dependent files in archive and I even found maps with the postfix "fix" binary identical to original map (e.g. "MH-QueenSistersV3").
You are adding to that noise.
At least I documented the changes and gave a contact possibility. :)
Software contains errors and releasing error fixed versions is a normal and usual welcome process if it is clear, what version follows what. Indeed this become complex if several distributors does this without notifying and even not knowing each other.

I posted a mod called "gopostalRYSfix" that is a single class mutator that you could easily rework for 90% of your map changes.
Unfortunately I could not find that mutator anywhere; at Medors place only Models and Textures are available. I'm very interested in such a mutator as I stated here already.

Finally, please reconsider forcing the map gametype setting to MonsterHunt.MonsterHunt when no gametype is listed. By doing this you create potential conflict with the map being able to be used in other mods.
Oh, I thought this could easily be overridden by server's settings.
"Multiple exclamation marks," he went on, shaking his head, "are a sure sign of a diseased mind." --Terry Pratchett
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Re: UT99 stuff by Barbie

Postby JackGriffin » Thu May 12, 2016 5:55 pm

I am pressed for time but I'll reply better later today. Here's the source code for that mod:

gopostalRYSfix.zip
(48.52 KiB) Downloaded 58 times


Strip all my crap out and use this as a good template for map checks. This mod is running all over Unreal servers now without issues. You don't need the translator mark class at all, it's just visual stuff to see where translator events are at. Any questions just let me know. More later....
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Re: UT99 stuff by Barbie

Postby Barbie » Thu May 12, 2016 8:31 pm

JackGriffin wrote:Here's the source code for that mod
Thanks for that. But this is the same style of mixing code and data in a package, I use too. ;o) So if anyone wants to change the data, he has to recompile the package. My idea is, to have code and data separated, but this work makes sense only, if others use such a "MapFixer", too (I for myself have no problem to recompile my base mutator if I add or change a map patch).

(But in your code I've found an answer to my question Accessing an Actor without a loop here. :D)
Code: Select all
function Actor GetMapActor(string ActorName) {
   return Actor(DynamicLoadObject(outer.name $ "." $ ActorName, class'Actor', true));
}
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Re: UT99 stuff by Barbie

Postby JackGriffin » Thu May 12, 2016 9:09 pm

Barbie wrote:if anyone wants to change the data, he has to recompile the package.

You are missing the point. You post a singular mutator and place all your map changes inside it. Give it a version number. Now I as a server admin can run all the stock maps that already exist in redirects and *countless* cache folders of players yet still make the changes you outline. You find two or three more maps you want to make changes to then you just version this single package forward once and add your changes. As the admin I only need to update one package and it's going to be very small.

You should pause to consider how many copies of a map you are actually placing when you do it the editor way. You can achieve the exact same goal with a 20kb package that you are forcing a 6MB map to do. 1MB of mutator map editing could cover a GB of your edited maps. I get that it's more fun to play in editor and that's your choice but why not solve this the eloquent, small, and simple way?

Barbie wrote: And if I have such a map on my work bench, I try to improve some other little things beside fixing the main problem

Just curious where you draw the line. Personally I think some of your 'changes' reflect the way you think the map should be played. That's not really for you to decide. This is someone else's work and should be respected. Have you approached the map makers for permission to do your changes? You ought to at least be doing that. There are certainly map makers that will go ballistic if they feel like someone made changes to their work without asking.

Again it's a different matter to construct a mutator that makes changes because the original maker's work remains intact as they intended. And yeah certain things ARE a problem like HOM's. You just work around that wherever possible. Be creative! Spawn barriers to block off the deadly section. Spawn a platform or walkway to prevent falling through map holes. I even have a gun that will do that in my Unreal servers.

Ah but then again I'm just an inactive former dev who just happened to make the same mistakes you are. It's so funny, I dug out some of my conversations with 3 and they greatly mirror what you and I are saying. I really was you lol. Perspective is a magical thing....
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Re: UT99 stuff by Barbie

Postby sektor2111 » Thu May 12, 2016 10:47 pm

Or private things are more funny. While they are happy for some trash and the rest are forcing engine to tweak thousands of Levels, playing them fixed is smoother as butter. Players are not very appreciating interesting stuff anyway...

Occurrence, EG pointed me in private to add Bot Support in whatever Level (no names to prevent any storm). The problem: some guys are stupid or ignorant at any Tutorials - the truth is I guess he was needing more workspace in Editor for doing that "MAP" with overpowered lights, Solids and shit. Map is from South to North almost half of space. Even doing perfect blue paths I could not see stuff at 700 UU and I did not went over "1000 Nodes bla bla" story. WHY I have to waste time speaking with such a "mapper" ? - HE IS CLUELESS and LOOKS like it will stay this way at least 10 years to figure what a mess is able to do. Of course EG's problem (as mine) will get solved using Bot Support WITHOUT paths, looks the only way to setup party in such utter trashes. Such a Level won't be fixed by any mother of mutators or GOD of Mutators, it needs Editor and... perhaps it will get improved... somehow. This time I intend to write 2 Actors using states for a less CPU load in order to make EG happy, else I cannot not see any solution. For me is very mysterious how to make A.I. handlers retarded as shit in a Level - it's a new sort of tutorial which I didn't found. Shame on me because I did not learn these lessons.

Barbie's way perhaps is a small response. Let's say that we can work in modules. Master loader mutator enters the level. It will do testing about the Map-Name. From a config if this Level is listed there it will load a server-side module based on MapName (strings deals) and which will proceed in fixing stuff, otherwise will be a need for 100 MB of package-mutator for doing everything which is pointless if player is playing 3 maps to load all stuff for 600 maps will will summarize GB of data loaded all the time making HDD life shorter.
Example of such things are visible in mapvote - able to load classes based on config defined, without dependent files and no failures. I think this is a domestic way in dealing with bad stuff. However BSP and barrier type craps I'm not sure if will get solved "on-fly".
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Re: UT99 stuff by Barbie

Postby Barbie » Fri May 13, 2016 7:03 pm

JackGriffin wrote:Perspective is a magical thing
What has turned your point of view? The distance from development?
"Multiple exclamation marks," he went on, shaking his head, "are a sure sign of a diseased mind." --Terry Pratchett
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Re: UT99 stuff by Barbie

Postby Carbon » Fri May 13, 2016 11:46 pm

Barbie wrote:
JackGriffin wrote:Perspective is a magical thing
What has turned your point of view? The distance from development?


He's talking about wisdom Barbie; the experience that only time and error can provide. Jack learned the same way as you likely will; by having conversations with people who have been there and done that, like parents are supposed to provide about life. Then in the future, it will be you saying what Jack is saying now and the cycle continues.

Don't think your work isn't appreciated (you now have a "Barbies Maps" folder in my collection), but as Jack has been saying, there are more efficient ways of doing things. I look forward to your future work as well, so keep at it! :tu:
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Re: UT99 stuff by Barbie

Postby JackGriffin » Sat May 14, 2016 3:33 am

Barbie wrote:What has turned your point of view? The distance from development?

It's been watching this game slowly die. Monsterhunt was a wonderful couple of years, a bunch of new people got interested, and the game actually grew. I had a big hand in fucking that up really badly. That's what I mean by perspective.

I initiated (and heavily encouraged) a lot of the "more health for monsters/now we need larger guns" bullshit that ruined MH. Not only that I went through making 'fixed' versions of maps, 20 versions of the same mod...I can go on and on. It burned bright until it reached it's logical conclusion on Hitty's NW3 server where multiple level 5 nukes are going off all the time. I remember watching it and feeling a fuck-ton of shame. I had a big hand in bringing my favorite game to this point: a thousand monsters with millions of health that can only be fought with weapons designed to destroy entire towns.

So dumb. I was so, so dumb.

Had I been smart I would have struggled to get all the MH maps into a single download spot with everyone agreeing to do changes via mods. Without so many multiple versions you could have every MH map for a couple of GB. The community wouldn't have fractured and the arms race wouldn't have begun in earnest. People could play all the MH servers and only need to download the server's mod. Redirects wouldn't need to be 30GB per server. We would have attracted new players. It could have grown. Instead admins burned out from mod conflicts. Players quite because of so many version mismatch. Now it's all over.

That's what I mean by perspective.

***and BTW I mean no disrespect to Hitty or his mappers. They love that shit and I respect that. There's just nowhere else to go once you render everything but a nuke useless.

EDIT: Oh and honorable mention goes to Nelsona. That guy gets it, his server is balanced and tough and fun. What MH should have stayed being.

Second EDIT: Sorry for all this. I got a little bit too high this evening. I wonder if this shit will make sense when I read it tomorrow? Probably not. Fuck it, lol.
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Re: UT99 stuff by Barbie

Postby MrLoathsome » Sat May 14, 2016 4:47 am

Hey now. It makes sense to me right now. ALL of it.

I think me and Jack are on the same page. *In more ways than one..... :roll:

He said pretty much everything I was thinking about this thread.

And, as a UT/UTCoopserver admin for a long, long, long time......
(Since day 2. Not day 1. (The DK server was the 1st UTcoopserver). But before 3.....)

I briefly had a U1 server up, before GOTY came out. I am old.

I agree with trying to avoid multiple versions of maps or any other files that might cause mismatch issues etc
whenever possible. If you make substantial changes/improvements to the map, as well as the fixes, then
release it as a new map while giving credit to the original authors.

Don't waste your time on minor fixes to maps that have half a dozen versions out there that are all broken in a slightly different way. :ironic2:
(That is a good way to learn playing with them, but make sure they are really worth adding to the global UT file clusterfuck. :omfg: )
Think we were just discussing the admin horror side of this issue in another thread just a few days ago.....

Keep at it. You are on the right track.

Nothing is over until we say it is. I am talking to you now Jack.
The game may be dying slowly, but I am gonna do what I can to make the rate of dying slower.
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Re: UT99 stuff by Barbie

Postby Aldebaran » Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:43 pm

Barbie, you have the MH-Bluff map fixed but I have still a problem there (also in MH-EXU2-Shitstorm based on MH-Bluff):
Often I can't open the door at spawn point because a Skaarj blocked it from outside and ones I have pressed the button I can't try it once more. Wouldn't it be better to remove the Skaarj?
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