Bots don't stand still on horizontal lift

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sektor2111
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Re: Bots don't stand still on horizontal lift

Post by sektor2111 »

Barbie wrote:Damn computer! Nothing changed! Maybe I should choose Brush>Add Special>Zone Portal. Bah... (and finally several Brushes share the same size and location. :lol2: )
Usually when I was messing up with some stuff I have learned one lesson: After adding a brush I switch to top/front/side view which proves that brush in cause has been added - doing this to see how do it looks aligned and if needs whatever modifications. If you look well at your work you cannot fail, but these mappers I think they have a half of brain sleeping, I'm very very noob with brushes and I did not messed things like that even rotating them rescaling them and still map being functional.
Generally all setup here needs a revision. I have to learn those vertex points how are translated in Text in order to get rid of those flickers which I guess are trash polys that can be seen in Text and I don't know which ones I have to remove.
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Re: Bots don't stand still on horizontal lift

Post by Barbie »

sektor2111 wrote:get rid of those flickers which I guess are trash polys
Ups, didn't you read this thread? This flickering is caused by non convex surfaces.

I think the map is fully fixed now and can be tested [url=unreal://81.169.240.101:7777]here[/url].
Changelog
= Fix Reasons =
* Elevatormover3 had wrong initial KeyNum
* some movers had set looping sounds for one-shot-designed sounds
* non convex surfaces causing flickering

= Changelog =
* exchanged Elevatormover3.KeyNum[0] and Elevatormover3.KeyNum[1] (first door)
* set Elevatormover{3,6}.KeyNum[1] to end 8 UU before vanishing in the wall (avoids flickering)
* set Trigger1.ReTriggerDelay to Elevatormover{3,6}.MoveTime + Elevatormover{3,6}.StayOpenTime + 0.5 = 6.5
* corrected mover sounds for Elevatormover{0,7,8}
* set Trigger0.bTriggerOnceOnly=True
* set Elevatormover0.WorldRayTraceKey from 0 to 1
* the cliffs had non convex surfaces - replaced them by a bunch of single brushes
* set empty Levelinfo0.Author to "Unknown/Fixes by Barbie"
* added screenshot
* changed Elevatormover7.Tag from 'ElevatorMover' to 'over1' to match LiftCenter/LiftExit-Tags
* changed Elevatormover8.Tag from 'ElevatorMover' to 'over2' to match LiftCenter/LiftExit-Tags
* changed Elevatormover{7,8}.InitialState from 'BumpOpenTimed' to 'StandOpenTimed' to support Bots
* because Bots do not wait for KeyNum[1] while standing on Mover, the last LiftExit is attached to a Mover that moves the LiftExit down when KeyNum[1] is reached
* set all LiftExit/LiftCenter related to ElivatorMover{7,8} to bOneWayPath=true and orientated them towards MonsterEnd destination
* some textures aligned
* added Tree0 :D
* deleted Sheet Brush{106,107,108,109} (without effect, multiple same sized at same location)
* deleted Sheet Brush{121,122,123,124,125} (without effect, multiple same sized at same location)
* zoned some areas
* reduced the number ot PathNodes
"Multiple exclamation marks," he went on, shaking his head, "are a sure sign of a diseased mind." --Terry Pratchett
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Re: Bots don't stand still on horizontal lift

Post by Iacobus_Imrlz »

sektor2111 wrote: I have to learn those vertex points how are translated in Text in order to get rid of those flickers which I guess are trash polys that can be seen in Text and I don't know which ones I have to remove.
The flickering is due to bad vertex alignment. The guy added cilinders and abused the reck out vertex editing, without checking the vertex alignment and odd shapes that can't be rendered by the engine.

I've finished the fisrt portion of the map, since you said you'd be doing everthing but it. I got rid of his wacky cilinders, fixed the vertexes, making all in 2 subtractive pieces. Now all those fences and planks won't conflict with the cliffs since there won't be overlaping additives.
Attachments
LavaCave.png
Last edited by Iacobus_Imrlz on Thu May 19, 2016 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bots don't stand still on horizontal lift

Post by Iacobus_Imrlz »

Barbie wrote:
sektor2111 wrote:get rid of those flickers which I guess are trash polys
Ups, didn't you read this thread? This flickering is caused by non convex surfaces.
The flickering is caused by bad vertex alignment. The concave surfaces will cause the texture to pop out of the brush, like in the 1st screenshot you posted in this thread
Attachments
LavaCave(Vertex).png
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Re: Bots don't stand still on horizontal lift

Post by Iacobus_Imrlz »

All brushes rebuilt and optimized. If there're still bugs, let me know.
Also did some light tweaks.
Attachments
MH-LavaCaves(V2).rar
Edited to add music and screenshot
(276.37 KiB) Downloaded 55 times
Light2.png
Light.png
brushes.png
Last edited by Iacobus_Imrlz on Fri May 20, 2016 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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sektor2111
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Re: Bots don't stand still on horizontal lift

Post by sektor2111 »

Btw, speaking about lights, after aligning brushes a bit, preventing some flicker effect with doing semisolid, I could see that even lighting works different, simply we have shadows here and there and it's truly shinny. I'm curious about the rest of fixes.

@Barbie:
I read the thread, but in random moments I don't trust everything. I'm sure that You can recreate this map using different small brushes and it won't be any convex issue if area has multiple brushes not a single one messed up by too much vertex "addiction", yes I have aligned them (found a few things in a tutorial) but did not entirely help until I changed to semisolid (still have a small null surface but no flicker). Interesting Level for learning some brush stuff - is small and tests can be done faster.
Looking at those misaligned in text format I really don't like what I see, there are some vertex coordinates which I think can be removed and brush might stay unchanged and improved - I'm gonna check it more.
As I recall I could see maps with a sort of tunnel with convex surfaces perfect operational because the mapper doing it was not fuck!ng things like noobs with Vertex issues and multiple surfaces and the rest of crap as was done here in only 97 brushes but he needed 106+ for 0 reasons.
I might look around other such levels a bit messed, I really want to learn a bit of brush fixing - I believe there is always a simple solution (as in coding without a ton of maths).
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Re: Bots don't stand still on horizontal lift

Post by Iacobus_Imrlz »

sektor2111 wrote:Btw, speaking about lights, after aligning brushes a bit, preventing some flicker effect with doing semisolid, I could see that even lighting works different, simply we have shadows here and there and it's truly shinny. I'm curious about the rest of fixes.
That's the beauty of using a multi intersected subtractive poly for your main layout when it's a large open area and using additives only for decos/trims.

1. You exempt your map from bad alignment and bad snapping;
2. Much easier for editing since you have to deal only with 1/2 vertexes at once instead of 4/8, carefree from bad snapping.
2. You prevent nasty overlaping between wall-floor polys/deco-trim polys;
3. You get a much more uniform illumination over large areas/multiple surfaces;
4. Faster to compile and smoother to run.

I also added those wood beams at the square holes to give some finishing and get easier to the eye. Oh, and some more torch poles on dark spots of the path.

As for the lighting, that's another story...

Actually, this map is a lesson of how not to map:

Mistake 1: Adds a huge subtractive brush;
Mistake 2: Tries to fill in that large area with poorly edited cylinders;
Mistake 3: Don't check for flickering surfaces, bad alignment and bad snapping;
Mistake 4: Leaves global lighting at 0.
Mistake 5: Adds a bunch of lights at max brightness to cover the whole area.

And don't get me started on level design lol

The map is shinnier because I edited the global lighting, also it looks more gradual and smoother because I ajusted brightness and added more transitional lights with different setting to make it gradual and well lit. it's not perfect but that's what I can do in half a hour. The zone portal at the beginning is there because I've changed the global lighting of the area to match the wall torches atmosphere in contrast with the lava pit outsideand and to get smooth shadows instead of pitch black spots. I also edited the settings to give a more reddish/yellowish tone of fire and lava to the environment.

sektor2111 wrote:but did not entirely help until I changed to semisolid (still have a small null surface but no flicker)
Semisolids may help with bad snapping but does no good for flickering and bad alignment as I showed in that 2D screenshot. Besides, if you make your floor semisolid you take the risk of making it not tangible and fall through. Semisolids are for wall/ceiling/trim decos, not floors you can step in, unless you're overlaping an additive for some trim effect.

sektor2111 wrote:I'm sure that You can recreate this map using different small brushes and it won't be any convex issue if area has multiple brushes not a single one messed up
You can see an example of that in the fisrt update I posted. I did use small cubes to rebuild the first cliff before the triggered bridge. It's just not optimal for lighting, overlaping brushes you may add on top of it, editing, etc
Attachments
Light1b.png
Light1a.png
Last edited by Iacobus_Imrlz on Sat May 21, 2016 3:51 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Bots don't stand still on horizontal lift

Post by Higor »

Well... in such a small map you can take as many luxuries as you want. Including huge lightmaps encompassing lots of coplanar surfaces.
I honestly despise the usage of global lighting above '1' unless specific ambient spots... but a lava cave is a special ambient and we may be needing some cheap radiosity lol.
I would review but I just remembered I have like 3 maps I never finished from many years ago :wtf:
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Re: Bots don't stand still on horizontal lift

Post by Iacobus_Imrlz »

Higor wrote:Well... in such a small map you can take as many luxuries as you want. Including huge lightmaps encompassing lots of coplanar surfaces.
Experienced mappers can do whatever they want in a map and it will still look good. I'm talking about beginner's traps. The reason why 90% of maps you see around look bad.
(PS: I've hidden the coplanars under the lava preciselly to avoid bad light transition. Bad lighting can ruin even small maps like that. There's a issue between top/bottom polys still but I'm not messing around with this map again)
Higor wrote:I honestly despise the usage of global lighting above '1' unless specific ambient spots... but a lava cave is a special ambient and we may be needing some cheap radiosity lol.
I've changed global lighting to 128 (I guess?) and it still looks darker than the original, because I've ajusted the brightness/effects of the lightmaps. Now that flat ceiling of his is less apparent, the lava doesn't look dull, the light actually looks like it's comming from the lava pit and you no longer have pitch black shadows in areas that should be lit and shadows actually look like shadows. i barelly changed the ligthmaps pos and I edited several in a row instead of individually so there's still room for improvement. For me it's not about making it look realistic, it about of making it believable and fitting for the design you're going for

If you want to manually lit every inch of your map, then sure, lightmaps will give you a more refined and realistic result. But if you spawn a few lights under your light spot and leave corners in pitch black, in areas that should've been lit by that light source, then shame on you, nice coronas won't make up for it!

MH maps can be dark and muddy but DM-CTF, I'm just not gonna play it, I might take a tour as though it was a tech demo. Besides, if you make it too dark, people will just throw full brightness on it and then it's going to look awful despite of your nice lighting work. Moody atmosphere is for SP/slow A.I. coop. Arenas should be well lit to not disturb the action, but that's just me lol :P
Higor wrote:I would review but I just remembered I have like 3 maps I never finished from many years ago :wtf:
No way! I'm not taking criticisms for a map that isn't originally mine lol I just messed around with it for fun and to make it playable for others, I don't even play MH!
Last edited by Iacobus_Imrlz on Fri May 20, 2016 10:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bots don't stand still on horizontal lift

Post by sektor2111 »

Don't get things very wrong, criticism must be a bit accepted because it heads to learning. Why I'm no longer map hunter ?
Short history: Some Levels were sadly messed up, a few nolifers called them "cool" (I don't know why - perhaps metal problems). Then... magically the rest of new blood got them as "How To" almost always a bad build might be an example taken as good, even is worst. As result MH collected during almost 10 years a mountain of trash and only a few good looking Levels and rarely with Bot Support. Idea for garbage multiplication leads nowhere only in admins quitting support, and this way UT will slowly dying (in quality), place being taken by shit servers with cubes sucking players and all are screaming: hey come here we have maps - HUH ? Maps ? I cannot see too many...
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Re: Bots don't stand still on horizontal lift

Post by Iacobus_Imrlz »

sektor2111 wrote:Don't get things very wrong, criticism must be a bit accepted because it heads to learning.
No worries, I was just being playful there and also letting him know the map isn't mine so I didn't take all the care and time I could for the fixes. If I had spent at least a month on this map and made sure everything is on place then sure criticisms would be welcomed. I'd rather see others taking the task and making the fixes as well with different approaches.

sektor2111 wrote:Why I'm no longer map hunter ?
Short history: Some Levels were sadly messed up, a few nolifers called them "cool" (I don't know why - perhaps metal problems). Then... magically the rest of new blood got them as "How To" almost always a bad build might be an example taken as good, even is worst. As result MH collected during almost 10 years a mountain of trash and only a few good looking Levels and rarely with Bot Support. Idea for garbage multiplication leads nowhere only in admins quitting support, and this way UT will slowly dying (in quality), place being taken by shit servers with cubes sucking players and all are screaming: hey come here we have maps - HUH ? Maps ? I cannot see too many.
One of the biggest issue I see in community maps is that the top notch mappers are all trying to over do each other over bitten up concepts while people trying to be creative simply lack the know how to make a playable/good looking map. It's a rare occasion when both talents collide to deliver a solid and original map.

I'm working on a map now at the risk of everybody hating it for not recognizing the same old layouts and design and for not knowing how to play it, but I just refuse myself to make a downgraded "DM-Maris 2.0" to please the nostalgic critics. If you see the most played original maps, they all have wacky gimmicks, interesting layouts and steep learning curve, but if a mapper tries to do something similar people won't take the same time to learn the map and get good at, so people come up with the same dull and easy to learn layouts, unless you make it over the top or funny, but then you can forget about tactical gameplay and interesting mechanics/level design.
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Re: Bots don't stand still on horizontal lift

Post by sektor2111 »

Your geometry looks stable and better, so I tuned a bit things at movers(GRAB removed and few settings changed, sounds fixed), monsters separated not 3 in 1 pawn-soup, a zone-portal created, runner added at last Elevator + a factory for a few additional pawns, fixed a torch from wall, added two LavaZones because were only traps not kill-zones, and good to gooo... YAY finally trash has been turned in a sort of map. Gotta upload it for this weekend, 52 creatures + 33 from factory I think is a decent Level (aside - "Cover Me" is not recommended unless you wanna find your ass burned down in lava - is too small for such things )
Nice job, Jacobus... :mrgreen: You might do other such revisions in such Levels.
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Re: Bots don't stand still on horizontal lift

Post by Iacobus_Imrlz »

sektor2111 wrote:Your geometry looks stable and better, so I tuned a bit things at movers(GRAB removed and few settings changed, sounds fixed), monsters separated not 3 in 1 pawn-soup, a zone-portal created, runner added at last Elevator + a factory for a few additional pawns, fixed a torch from wall, added two LavaZones because were only traps not kill-zones, and good to gooo... YAY finally trash has been turned in a sort of map. Gotta upload it for this weekend, 52 creatures + 33 from factory I think is a decent Level (aside - "Cover Me" is not recommended unless you wanna find your ass burned down in lava - is too small for such things )
Nice job, Jacobus... :mrgreen: You might do other such revisions in such Levels.

Thanks for the feedback, I layed my polys over the existent geometry to keep the layout intact (except for a few angles that wasn't worth of a vertex) so I could've transfered some of the errors. The geometry is the same, I just made it stable and got rid of overlaping issues by making the floor/walls subtractive (I only removed the retangles he placed under the lava, I don't know why people do it to ther maps! lol).

I didn't mess with paths, monsters, movers since you said you do it, otherwise I wouldn't even have done the rest lol That last area seems a bit cheap though. You can simply hide behind the slope to dodge rockets and also kill monster by shooting their ankles lol It'd be better if there were monsters in the flanks too.
lavacave2.png
Btw, what exactly you mean by GRAB? lol I don't frequent UT forums so I'm not familiar with the terminologies and such!


PS: I updated the file there to add screenshot, music and to get rid of that line between the top cylinder poly and the custom poly. I thought it was bad lighting but it's just unaligned texture. You can upload the file after you're done if you want me to do these fixes.
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Re: Bots don't stand still on horizontal lift

Post by sektor2111 »

Iacobus_Imrlz wrote:Btw, what exactly you mean by GRAB? lol I don't frequent UT forums so I'm not familiar with the terminologies and such!
Test:
First 2 doors (original map). Open map and Delete doors trigger, save as whatever.
Now start map and stay in touch with a door, tell to that door in console <GRAB> or if you have a default config press <G>. Now see what door does. A monster linked with such door is pointless, I have removed all GRAB from all Movers I really don't need a mess with Bot (Bot knows GRAB as well).

I know even a map with some stuff requiring BT skill to get some weapon. All player was discarding a couple of BT stunts by unlocking a shortcut just using a stupid command which has no real purpose in MH more exactly cheating based on Noob map setup or deliberated messed up.
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Re: Bots don't stand still on horizontal lift

Post by Iacobus_Imrlz »

sektor2111 wrote:
Iacobus_Imrlz wrote:Btw, what exactly you mean by GRAB? lol I don't frequent UT forums so I'm not familiar with the terminologies and such!
Test:
First 2 doors (original map). Open map and Delete doors trigger, save as whatever.
Now start map and stay in touch with a door, tell to that door in console <GRAB> or if you have a default config press <G>. Now see what door does. A monster linked with such door is pointless, I have removed all GRAB from all Movers I really don't need a mess with Bot (Bot knows GRAB as well).
Oh, I see, I thought his doors were just bugged lol. When you first said 'GRAB' I thought it was some sort of native glitch found related to triggered movers.

Regarding your suggestion for more map fixes, if you got any that is worth a try just let me know.
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