Mapping Contest Theme Discussion

[papercoffee]

It's a little silly to say no external packages and design the contest around using a very large external, non-default group of packages. If you don't allow them you are going to end up with 14 Crypt2 textured maze maps. Not a whole lot else in default UT packages speaks to Chaos.

Hmmmm... I did see the Chaos decoration as part of the default files since UT-GOTY release. But in the other way, not everyone has the GOTY edition.

Ok what about we bent the rule to have better looking maps.
You have to include every external/exotic pack you use in the released uncompressed zip file. But not more than 4 packs are allowed and keep an eye on the 10 MB limit. In the final release we'll put the actual Chaos-mod in the zip, just to be on the safe side.
What do you say folks?

EDIT: the reason is that myleveling textures for packs that are used a lot just makes no sense. that said, I DO think the community needs to discuss a list of essential packages, not just for this contest but for coming ones as well.
that way there is an easy way to deal with the to-mylevel-or-not-to-mylevel debate that pops up every time.

So... what would we consider as default files.
Isn't there already somewhere an index of them?

[Red_Fist]

Go for it, in the end the map will be the deciding factor. Pretty hard with this using the chaos idea.

[memsys]

It's a little silly to say no external packages and design the contest around using a very large external, non-default group of packages. If you don't allow them you are going to end up with 14 Crypt2 textured maze maps. Not a whole lot else in default UT packages speaks to Chaos.

Hmmmm... I did see the Chaos decoration as part of the default files since UT-GOTY release. But in the other way, not everyone has the GOTY edition.

Ok what about we bent the rule to have better looking maps.
You have to include every external/exotic pack you use in the released uncompressed zip file. But not more than 4 packs are allowed and keep an eye on the 10 MB limit. In the final release we'll put the actual Chaos-mod in the zip, just to be on the safe side.
What do you say folks?

EDIT: the reason is that myleveling textures for packs that are used a lot just makes no sense. that said, I DO think the community needs to discuss a list of essential packages, not just for this contest but for coming ones as well.
that way there is an easy way to deal with the to-mylevel-or-not-to-mylevel debate that pops up every time.

So... what would we consider as default files.
Isn't there already somewhere an index of them?

I'm fine with external packs as long as the total size us under 10mb.

Well, all the stuff that comes on disc1 of ut goty are standard packages for obvious reasons. BP4 is... a bit iffy as it's an official pack but is not part of the goty release.

As for "essential" packages that is up for debate. What do I mean with that? well, I am talking about packages that are NOT official but are used SO MUCH that if you want to play custom maps you are likely to need the packages as they are so widely used.
Why have this discussion? because at every contest this exact thing pops up. a bunch of people always end up arguing about if just standard packages should be allowed, if custom content should be my leveld and if widely used packages are allowed or not.

Now, if we as a community made a list of custom packages that we think should be essential to ut99 we can easily solve this discussion the next time it comes up. it also serves are a nice reference to find good/widely used packages.
If we do this then during the next contest we could say that all or a subset of the essential packages list would be allowed to be external and anything else is either not allowed or needs to be myleveled.

as for what I think is/are essential packages, all I can think of is uttech4. Admittedly I did not download a large amount of custom content so I don't know what other packages are used a lot or are good enough to be seen as essential.

Yes, I am aware that it's annoying to go trough all this effort but I think it will be a GOOD thing in the long end. I've seen enough drama here as the occasional lurker and contest participant, I don't think the endless back and forth about custom content with every contest is good for the community here or the continued survival of the game.

[JackGriffin]

I agree with Mem on nearly every point. Not to sound like a dissenting opinion but why have an arbitrary size limit anyway? Everyone has high-speed internet. Besides it really hurts a mapper's options to not be able to pull a texture or two out of any of the thousand common packages that are in everyone's installation already from playing online. As long as those packages are included with the map I just don't see the problem. It's one thing to have a size-based contest like the 512kb one but if it's just a theme-based contest then the discussion of default/non-default content needs to be set aside. Let mappers do their thing and let's see what happens.

[memsys]

well, I can see the point of having a max size (although that would depend on the exact rules) seeing as while fast internet is more common then it was before there are still people who are stuck with slow connections and old computers.
and quite frankly, I find it rather annoying when I have to download a bunch of large files if I want to play online.

and lets be fair, do you want a 100mb map that may or may not be worth the size?

[Spectra]

My WIP map: DM-CMC-Woe.

Spoiler

Most of the textures are taken from UT2004, resized to 256x256 and imported to Mylevel. I won't have time after the contest starts, so I am trying to complete the map as soon as possible.

[nogardilaref]

You win.
That's looking really good.

[papercoffee]

and lets be fair, do you want a 100mb map that may or may not be worth the size?

And that's where the idea came from... to not have to download a humongous map. Good mapper can make a awesome looking map in 10MB. Or even less

The whole contest idea was started by sektor/Nelsona who liked the former space limited one and wanted a rerun.
That's why we thought about another limitation contest ...but honestly all limits we came up untill now got watered down.
The only things we have left is "make it fitting for Chaos" and please keep the map inside of 10MB.

I won't have time after the contest starts, so I am trying to complete the map as soon as possible.

Wait what? Couldn't you at least wait with the finished map till the contest is 2 weeks under way?!

I haven't finished the badge.

[OjitroC]

That's why we thought about another limitation contest ...but honestly all limits we came up untill now got watered down.
The only things we have left is "make it fitting for Chaos" and please keep the map inside of 10MB.

There's been no suggestion that the 4096uu limit has been removed surely? See viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12318&start=120#p99706

So the map has to be 10MB or less but the allowed 3 or 4 external packages can be of any size? Though any limit on the size of the map package as a whole goes against the clear result of the poll in relation to file size.

[papercoffee]

So the map has to be 10MB or less but the allowed 3 or 4 external packages can be of any size? Though any limit on the size of the map package as a whole goes against the clear result of the poll in relation to file size.

As I stated above (somewhere) the packages have to be included in the uncompressed zip file you send to the contest. And if the zip is bigger then 10MB you get penalty points. But as it seems is this still debatable.

Ah yeah, I forgot the 4096uu are still in.

Now we have to decide if the 10MB limit stays or if we follow the vote result and say any sizes goes.

[Red_Fist]

Well I want to use a 200 meg texture file and since it's me me me, I only want to use one texture out of it. ?

They can't use mylevel, ? not buying it.

How about the zip can't exceed 10 meg ? 20 ? then they will HAVE to use the other packages wisely and no complaining.

Being it is a theme based contest, people should be able to uses non stock files, so put a cap on the zip file.

[SilverSound]

I think the file size limit should go away. No real valid reason why it should stay. Modern internet fixes download and your pc can handle a file that tiny. It's a bit annoyance for mappers to have to worry about.

It's bad enough you have to stress on the UU size but anything else is unneeded added stress.

[OjitroC]

I would have thought that the time span for the contest (6 weeks), the theme (Chaos/Halloween), the map dimensions (4096uu) and the number of external packages (3 or 4) are sufficient contest constraints without adding a further one on the size of the overall map 'package' (uncompressed zip). It is more than likely these constraints will ensure that humungous maps aren't produced if, indeed, that is a concern.

By the way, does the size of the UTR MAPS (not map packages) or of quite a few of FraGnBraG's MAPS deter people from downloading and playing them (All over 20MB MAP size)? It's the all round quality that is important rather than the size.

[makemeunreal]

My WIP map: DM-CMC-Woe.

Spoiler

Most of the textures are taken from UT2004, resized to 256x256 and imported to Mylevel. I won't have time after the contest starts, so I am trying to complete the map as soon as possible.

This one looks pretty rad actually!

[nogardilaref]

Unlike what most people think, there are still many people with very slow connections, so downloading anything such as a 200MB map is a bit troublesome.

Furthermore, when it comes to online servers, no one will put such a humongous map there, no matter how good it looks. It just takes too long to download, and players do not have that patience.
Maybe the only exception to this rule would be BT servers, since it's a gametype you spend more time looking at the map details, and the map is the star of the show there, so mappers generally put a great deal of detail and make them beautiful so it's actually rewarding seeing how the rest of the map looks like, rather than just passing the obstacles for the sake of passing them.

But even then, I never found a map that large there, I think the largest I have seen had about 50MB at most (although not sure).

Anyway, I think the current constraints are fine too, people voted against a filesize limit, so there's no limit, other than the actual dimensions of the map, which are indeed to prevent giant maps from getting built and never released, on time at least.
The only issue I had was concerning MyLevel itself, for plenty of what I believe to be strong enough reasons to consider, and since there wasn't a middle ground in the poll to vote for, and it seems a limited number of external packages will be allowed after all, so all is OK imho.

I think everyone can go wild from there.