Process of Maping (Level Design)

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JackGriffin
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Re: Process of Maping (Level Design)

Post by JackGriffin »

Why is no one asking about "Cock Master"?
So long, and thanks for all the fish
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PrinceOfFunky
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Re: Process of Maping (Level Design)

Post by PrinceOfFunky »

JackGriffin wrote:Why is no one asking about "Cock Master"?
Oh I saw it too, I guess he drew it at school.
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Re: Process of Maping (Level Design)

Post by nogardilaref »

@PrinceOfFunky: We're both pretty much in the same boat concerning the Wacom tablet, I bought one for the exact same reasons, well over a year ago (although it was with gift card the company I am at offered on Christmas in the previous year).

Although I did only experiment with it, and I do intend to use it not exactly to "draw stuff" in the sense of making an actual drawing, but rather use it for something else (draw new textures, skins, stuff like that which only a free hand with a pen can properly provide at times).
But in my case I am diligently working on something else as a pre-requirement of what I really want to do in the end, so it will take a while before I use it again myself.

And I know it may sound bad for you to force yourself into making this and that, but it's only bad if you have no interest whatsoever to do it.
If you have any interest at all, and want to recover your ability of thinking outside the box, you actually have to work on it, otherwise it all resumes to procrastination and nothing more.
So, while at the start it may suck a bit exactly because your own perception might be that you're wasting your precious free time in something that "might not worth it", from the moment you start to get results from it, even if small ones like being able to reach a milestone you've set to yourself, the motivation builds up, your mind opens up with it, and all of a sudden you are doing it because you want to and genuinely believe to be a good time investment, and things will just come out much more naturally.

It's a tedious process at first, but quickly becomes something you really like to do.
And again, this only works with things which you actually want to do but are backlogged in the back of your mind by how "hard" it seems it will be to get there, because once you start doing it, and getting closer and closer to the end goal, it will look more and more within reach.
JackGriffin wrote:Why is no one asking about "Cock Master"?
Only noticed it now. :lol2:
Although I just noticed he's portuguese like me, so I understood the other sentences as well, so here it goes:
"Pilas Assassinas" -> "Assassin Cocks"
"O Iuri gosta de pila" -> "Iuri likes cock"
:lol2:
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Re: Process of Maping (Level Design)

Post by makemeunreal »

Yo no entiendo.
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Re: Process of Maping (Level Design)

Post by Hellkeeper »

Going back to the original question:
XaNKoNII wrote:what is your process of creation for a map? Do you start with a pen on paper design of certain/all elements or is it usually just editor work?
First, it depends on whether I want to make a map focusing on the game or on the atmosphere.
If I want to focus on the game, there are two methods: either plan ahead, that is make an actual map of your map (ahah!) with pen and paper. This usually produces good well-thought maps but means you have to keep in mind the size of what you're drawing and that what seems fine on paper might not be possible in the game because you won't be able to sliiightly cheat here and there as you can on paper.
It also means you have to be able to understand your drawing if you come back at it several monthes later. Take a look at this for instance. This is an old plan from 2009 for a map I made 2 years later (and which looked nothing like the plan). Not only is it barely understandable, I can barely read the title suggestions I wrote.

I sometimes also start directly with the editor, build a room with several levels and interesting situations, and then I move back and try to imagine (without actually building anything more) the missing parts of the map so that it flows well together. This requires thinking about the game and imagining a situation you'd find nice to be playing (something like "being in a bunker, half underground, with a corridor running under the ground and two entrances leading up to the main level, with the flak there at the intersection of the three pathways...) Remember DOM-512k-Qesh I made in 2014? It was an interesting case: three rooms I had deemed interesting simply liked together with a fac corridors and a single intermediary room built on the spot for people to spawn.
Since I usually don't follow up on most rooms built this way, I accumulate a number of small maps with interesting rooms in a dedicated folder, and when the need arises, I can sometimes pick from it to start a new map, complete one I'm working on or assemble a few for a map made on-purpose (such as Qesh for the 512k contest).

Now if I'm focusing on the atmosphere, this always means I have an idea of the atmosphere I want to create. From there, I'm free to build whatever I want and then just dump my atmospheric powers upon it.
If I feel this needs a very nice layout, I can use one of the methods above, but if I'm focusing on the ambiance, I probably don't care as much, so I may sometimes just build the map as it goes, which usually doesn't result in very interesting maps. This is something I did when I started mapping but I avoid it now because it doesn't work well and you can usually see the difference between the different parts of the maps which were made one after the other.
My favourite method is to start by imagining a 1 or 2 sentences description of the map which sounds cool and then imagine how to make this playable. I used this for my last UT2004 map, BR-Riveting. The description goes something like "a huge drilling tower liked by suspended bridges to power stations, in the middle of an endless frozen plain". This being the main idea, I built a huge drilling tower in an empty cube, created big power stations, then tall suspended bridges, linked everything and then baked a terrain underneath all that. Lighting and effects were added afterwards to fit the desired atmosphere. This is probably the "atmospheric" version of planning ahead, except you're planning the atmosphere and not the layout.
You must construct additional pylons.
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Re: Process of Maping (Level Design)

Post by Gustavo6046 »

Actually I don't put my maps on paper first. Unfortunately I lacked the inspiration to continue this, and..
XaNKoNII wrote: Image
Quem és esse Iuri de quem falaste?
"Everyone is an idea man. Everybody thinks they have a revolutionary new game concept that no one else has ever thought of. Having cool ideas will rarely get you anywhere in the games industry. You have to be able to implement your ideas or provide some useful skill. Never join a project whose idea man or leader has no obvious development skills. Never join a project that only has a web designer. You have your own ideas. Focus on them carefully and in small chunks and you will be able to develop cool projects."

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Re: Process of Maping (Level Design)

Post by Terraniux »

My proces of thinking , I don't know. I just let it naturally flow.

But If I ever have a order it would be this I think?

1 First the idea > 2 the place > 3 theme > 4 day or night? > 5 brushes, start with basic geometry > 6 lighting , make basic lighting > 7 let the building naturally flow -- you can not make mistakes.
Then later very later I start filling the gaps, between basic and highly detailed. Go from room to room to room. Do everything in small pieces time at a time.

I use pen and paper to create order when my thoughts are chaotic / and or can not make up my mind :idea:
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PrinceOfFunky
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Re: Process of Maping (Level Design)

Post by PrinceOfFunky »

nogardilaref wrote:and want to recover your ability of thinking outside the box
Yeah you got the point, we were talking about fantasy but it applies on the whole way of thinking, which is indeed thinking outside the box.
Terraniux wrote:My proces of thinking , I don't know. I just let it naturally flow.
Me either, but I remember a day I drew a level before to make it, but it was a very small map.

These last days I was thinking how the process of mapping would be if we had "data" lol, you know like companies who get data and process it to understand what people like and what not...
Imagine a map played by real people, every second you get their coordinates(and probably even their EEG data which would require them to wear an EEG but you could get very useful data), then you use a program wich builds up a HeatMap, which is used on 360° videos to see where people give more attentions, something like this:
Spoiler
HeatMap.JPG
in the tridimensional space of your map. This way you could understand what ways players prefer to use, what ways players never use, where they camper at, etc... This would be useful to build the next map basing on players behaviour.
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Re: Process of Maping (Level Design)

Post by XaNKoNII »

Thank you all for your Inputs and discussion so far it really helps :highfive:

As for was was in those doodles, LMAO I didn´t even realise I had it there until Jack mention it :loool: :loool:
guess I was so fucoussed on the drawing that somehow i completely ignored everything else :ironic:
And yes it was, not in school but in one of the many formations I´m having at my current job :idea:
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Re: Process of Maping (Level Design)

Post by Red_Fist »

I posted this in another thread

download/file.php?id=8090

That map was from wanting to make a highway intersection clover leaf on-off ramps, as a DM map.
Then I was thinking to make an infinity road with my ramp brushes.

LoL so I made that experiment, even if a map don't work at least you can try out your theories. You just have to have the urge and curiosity to try something that you think up, at any time. My plan to make the highway map, it didn't seem that good, so I used the brush for some other, spur of the moment, map idea.
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Re: Process of Maping (Level Design)

Post by XaNKoNII »

Red_Fist wrote:I posted this in another thread

download/file.php?id=8090

That map was from wanting to make a highway intersection clover leaf on-off ramps, as a DM map.
Then I was thinking to make an infinity road with my ramp brushes.

LoL so I made that experiment, even if a map don't work at least you can try out your theories. You just have to have the urge and curiosity to try something that you think up, at any time. My plan to make the highway map, it didn't seem that good, so I used the brush for some other, spur of the moment, map idea.
This is pretty cool, I agree Mapping is all about exploring creativity. Some preffer a more realistic aproach others go with the "gamy" but one thing is certain a Level is as good as its creative and unique. And for me I love LevelDesign because in a Game Engine I can play god creating things not possible in the real world and this for me is such a stress release. I´ve come across some "proof of concepts" that I have on one of my UT99 and they are allways cool to inspect
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Re: Process of Maping (Level Design)

Post by papercoffee »

For me it's mostly Editor work. I start with blocking out the raw map and change and add details on the run.
The Layout is already created in my head and updated when I encounter a potential good way to add more possibility for map movements.
My most important tool is the 3D view-port where I go through a blocked map to check the visual clues and the feeling of the rooms/places. Mostly I spawn a Rocket Launcher somewhere to have a good comparison for the size of the map. I always struggle to remember how tall and wide a player uu is. :ironic:
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Re: Process of Maping (Level Design)

Post by editor Dave »

XaNKoNII wrote: And my inner thoughts are, do I try too hard to make the concept while others just "do" the map? But then again, i´m about to make V2.0 of Lords_of_Thevoid and have a few ideas for new map elements but at the same time If I try every single Idea that I have that will be too time consuming
In professional game development, planning ahead is a key factor for success. Of course, we as hobby mappers can approach our brush babies in any way, but if you look for efficiency, drawing sketches helps you a lot. So, there's really nothing wrong you, on the contrary: you might be pretty sane as opposed to the "map on its way" level designers, as I used to be. :lol:

In the past, I liked to map room by room, and I was focused on delivering enterily new assets in each and every one of them. This process was effective in a way that it produced pleasing results to the eye relatively fast, but the floorplan was lazy and not really well-thoughtout. Being mainly an SP mapper, this can be excused, but later on it didn't really feel satisfying anymore.

For the second iteration, I kind of blew up a major area and replaced it entirely with a different building that was supposed to be interconnected more. The problem was, I forced myself to stay in a certain area so the beginning and the end which were not re-mapped could be latched on with ease. This resulted in me building, stretching and adjusting several areas several times so I could stay within the parameters because I still mapped on the go. It took me forever to bring my vision to life since I only had that vague picture in my mind but the very restricting space and some individual areas. Of course, it would only become worse when I realized that I made a "map" that actually spans five maps as they all relate and reach in and out of each other.

So lately, I did a lot of more planning. I've written some kind of "Unforchers" bible in which I documented my process and my goals, the story and the items I want to use, as well as every idea I want to implement and where. I've been drawing out more stuff (when travelling by train, I don't have anything better to do anyway), even if rudimentary, and it helped me immensely to focus on my vision. Even if not everything works as planned, it is nice to have something you can hang on to, also if your creativity flies away. Everytime, even in the few rare cases in the earlier days (see below), I find myself mapping way faster when I had been drawing something before.
This is one of my few concepts of the "earlier days" (which is now a kind of dated mapping style for me) in 2008 which I only made reality for the re-vision of the map in 2011. I thought it was a nice touch for the sketch to be viewed ingame as well.
This is one of my few concepts of the "earlier days" (which is now a kind of dated mapping style for me) in 2008 which I only made reality for the re-vision of the map in 2011. I thought it was a nice touch for the sketch to be viewed ingame as well.
Image
10-Year Anniversary on Jun 08, 2019.
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Re: Process of Maping (Level Design)

Post by nogardilaref »

^ You might call it dated, I call it awesome. :mrgreen: :tu:
The level of atmosphere in those screenshots alone is really great.

But yeah, in the professional world, you have to plan things, because there are timings, a limited budget, etc, but when it comes to do it as a hobby, while planning will certainly allow you to do a better job at it and more efficiently, in the end a "hobby" is meant to be a relaxing activity, not something to take very seriously, so doing it as you go is probably the most relaxed way of doing it, if you are more focused in the process rather than the result that is.
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Re: Process of Maping (Level Design)

Post by XaNKoNII »

editor Dave wrote:
XaNKoNII wrote: And my inner thoughts are, do I try too hard to make the concept while others just "do" the map? But then again, i´m about to make V2.0 of Lords_of_Thevoid and have a few ideas for new map elements but at the same time If I try every single Idea that I have that will be too time consuming
In professional game development, planning ahead is a key factor for success. Of course, we as hobby mappers can approach our brush babies in any way, but if you look for efficiency, drawing sketches helps you a lot. So, there's really nothing wrong you, on the contrary: you might be pretty sane as opposed to the "map on its way" level designers, as I used to be. :lol:

In the past, I liked to map room by room, and I was focused on delivering enterily new assets in each and every one of them. This process was effective in a way that it produced pleasing results to the eye relatively fast, but the floorplan was lazy and not really well-thoughtout. Being mainly an SP mapper, this can be excused, but later on it didn't really feel satisfying anymore.

For the second iteration, I kind of blew up a major area and replaced it entirely with a different building that was supposed to be interconnected more. The problem was, I forced myself to stay in a certain area so the beginning and the end which were not re-mapped could be latched on with ease. This resulted in me building, stretching and adjusting several areas several times so I could stay within the parameters because I still mapped on the go. It took me forever to bring my vision to life since I only had that vague picture in my mind but the very restricting space and some individual areas. Of course, it would only become worse when I realized that I made a "map" that actually spans five maps as they all relate and reach in and out of each other.

So lately, I did a lot of more planning. I've written some kind of "Unforchers" bible in which I documented my process and my goals, the story and the items I want to use, as well as every idea I want to implement and where. I've been drawing out more stuff (when travelling by train, I don't have anything better to do anyway), even if rudimentary, and it helped me immensely to focus on my vision. Even if not everything works as planned, it is nice to have something you can hang on to, also if your creativity flies away. Everytime, even in the few rare cases in the earlier days (see below), I find myself mapping way faster when I had been drawing something before.
conceptingame.jpg
Well I do have the goal of working in the area, so I do it as a hobby but with a well thought plan of doing it as a job in long term, this may hold some influence in me wanting to explore how to create and present ideas without consuming too much time.
I do notice well I draw even if only a part of a level, it really isnt 100% as planed but actual work flows faster.
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