Botpathing contest ?

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Botpathing contest ?

Postby Red_Fist » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:31 am

LoL, I was thinking make a map that has several situations for bots to get through. Everyone use the same map, and judged by timing how long it takes one bot to get through, set to "skilled" or lower, but I think they start limiting bots at a certain skill level to physically not do things, they did in UT2004.

Got to have a ramp, some water, at least one button push, some high area or narrow, and some jumping.

But testing would take time, and I am not sure if the map messes up the bot to get different times, all the time.
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Re: Botpathing contest ?

Postby EvilGrins » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:43 am

Seems like something that'd work best for an existing map that has no pathing, or sucky pathing.

Possibles:
- MH-UM-SoccerStadium1
- MH-LongCorridor2006
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Re: Botpathing contest ?

Postby Higor » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:09 am

MH-LongCorridor2006 won't work because of a bug, no matter how well done paths are.
It is only playable in unreal://193.111.136.210:7788 because of FerBotz + map scripter.

This bug applies to a lot of oversized maps and the only way to test is pathing up to a (not visible from start) weapon and seeing if bots can get it.
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Re: Botpathing contest ?

Postby sektor2111 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:50 am

If DevPath sucks we can switch to alternate method. Worth ? They won't cover you unless someone is ready with a new UScript formula (doubts on this)...
As for a new thing - new map - I might be interested... and I have other proposals too because button is a simple task - too simple at random. How about some Bridge which can be destroyed and recoverable and Bot using/not using it depending on situation ? Or a door that will open by shooting something ? Eh ? A translocation combo ? May I continue ?
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Re: Botpathing contest ?

Postby Red_Fist » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:44 am

All I can say is whatever ends up in the map, is what ends up in the map. Or we pick some existing map.
Or some 3rd party make one, but the problem is, is the person making the map needs to know botpathing to put a route-obstacle course that has reasonable path for a stock bot. Everything stock UT bots.
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Re: Botpathing contest ?

Postby nogardilaref » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:18 am

Not going to participate in the contest myself (I am done with them for a while, need to focus in something else), but if I may, I think you should simply develop a brand new map, and have it be something like BunnyTrack, but something which is possible for a bot to do (and very easy for a human).
So it should be something with obstacles, but possible for a bot to go through, and no custom scripting should be allowed, otherwise it's extremely easy to lead a bot to do whatever you want it to do with code.

Also, I think the test should be made in different difficulty levels. For instance, whenever I add bot pathing to a map, I always test it almost exclusively in Godlike difficulty, and this is to rule out the dumbness penalty they get in lower difficulties as the reason they may not go to a certain spot or do certain things.
So for this contest, a rule could be that the bot MUST be able to pass the map in Godlike, and if the bot does so as well in other difficulties, those would be simply extra points (the lower the difficulty, the higher the points).

If unlike the other contest, this one is properly defined this time, you might have something very interesting going on here. :)
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Re: Botpathing contest ?

Postby Hellkeeper » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:40 pm

The idea of everyone doing the most boring part of level design on the same map is funny. :P
You must construct additional pylons.
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Re: Botpathing contest ?

Postby makemeunreal » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:53 pm

It may be borin',but very unique as well on it's own!
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Re: Botpathing contest ?

Postby Terraniux » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:22 pm

Want a real challenge? Try my MH-CrystalMine3 map. :mrgreen: Or even better, number 4. Manage to make those bots fully online playable, and you are able to call yourself an expert.

Or maybe I do the challenge myself sometime. No idea. But if people want a challenge I give you 2 options as well.
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Re: Botpathing contest ?

Postby JackGriffin » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:31 pm

Won't all the tests have to be done on the same machine? Different CPU's would surely give faster response times to the AI computations and throw off the results. Someone will need to host the contest entirely.
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Re: Botpathing contest ?

Postby Higor » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:17 pm

MH-CrystalMine has the bug... at the start spots exactly lol.
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Re: Botpathing contest ?

Postby sektor2111 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:43 pm

Sometimes Bot Pathing in certain Level needs a rebuild. By rebuilding a map with some geometry borks ugly things will occur. However, I might be able to "inject" something in CM-3 - even CM-4 or simply placing stuff in a modified level. In MonsterHunt is not a need DevPaths after all. Else if you wanna check toward what is doable I can send you guys some MH-AfterDark entirely Bot Pathed - switching routes and properly unlocking teleporter (actually is done from 2 years if memory doesn't cheat me). To not forget that it has some bad zone in the middle where nodes have to be closer else DevPath doesn't work regarding to a perfect blue line shown in Editor. First I need to recall how is CM-3. That boat is the problem ? I think NO.
nogardilaref wrote:and no custom scripting should be allowed, otherwise it's extremely easy to lead a bot to do whatever you want it to do with code.
And then what is so nice to see a Bot doing what default directives are saying. If Bot doesn't do nothing special I don't see anything interesting. Btw, do you know the problem of a blocked teleporter ? Actually is nothing doable with STOCK things, and not in smaller zones around this Teleporter A.I. bug when shortest route is through teleporter. They camp around that because of SpecialHandling crap. I don't know why I'm bother to reply here then. Bot can use a Button, a Lift, Translocator, ImpactHammer, Teleporters, WarpZones, Shooting Mover, Shooting a Decoration, summoning a some never usable mover by human, cheating movers using GRAB, these are default things which are not that impressive, seriously. In 2017 perhaps we have to step into another Level. Else if stock is a rule I'll do what was in Chaos contest - getting over rules (by a deliberated mistake based on miss-understanding).
Of course if you want ONLY default stuff do it, but I won't participate with stock only then because that stuff is more than very poor. In exchange I will setup another stuff in background nearby contest which Bot lovers will find cute (or really evil). Restrictions means restricting creativity. May I ask what for do we need restrictions ? Make Bot to dance if you can, what's the problem ? Some people are curious about A.I.'s potential not about the same stock like in years 2002.
JackGriffin wrote:Won't all the tests have to be done on the same machine? Different CPU's would surely give faster response times to the AI computations and throw off the results. Someone will need to host the contest entirely.
I think I can make Bot to work nice even at 1400 MHz single core CPU - actually that environment was where I've been pathing things.
Red_Fist wrote: a route-obstacle course that has reasonable path for a stock bot. Everything stock UT bots.
I'm not going to remove my MBots for a default moron Bot, don't count on me here. For your personal knowledge in maps with more water Bot might go to wrong physics getting stuck because is BAD CODED. Why should I mess then ? Nog said no custom scripts, then enjoy a retard running in water, and yes that will be one of BUG LIMITING which I will never do.
Do you get want I mean ? Or you don't play with Bots to see their issues ?
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More reading interesting things
Terraniux wrote:Want a real challenge? Try my MH-CrystalMine3 map.

Challenge Accepted. :agree1:
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Re: Botpathing contest ?

Postby Red_Fist » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:47 pm

Oh no, STOCK bot skill of adept or lower NEVER test a map on godlike. I usually use skilled.
Reason being, if one bot can make it through on the lowest skill, they will terrorize on higher skills, if you want good bot action.
At the same time tests botpathing a lot more, using a bot that can barely get through.

As for CPU speed, would have no effect, simple map, 1 bot. game has frequency-timer. So it would be less stress even when I had a Pentium 90Mhz

:loool: , the whole idea of the contest IS to use the stock bots and the speed it takes the STOCK bot to get through, any other thing would be cheating.
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Re: Botpathing contest ?

Postby sektor2111 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:14 pm

There is not cheat when stuff works properly, nvm anyway. Don't count one me there, I will never return at bad dumb default stock not even in dreams.

Back to stage CM-3. Examination results:
Area with objectives until activation of secondary spawn location seems to do something with a condition: to not be added the rest of required paths. So to speak I found such situation, some other map was working until a half of road, by completing the rest of paths everything stopped working, simply there is no challenge when Engine is refusing to work, a car will never move without engine until you pull it down-hill using gravity. Given door triggers and such probably "artificial navigation" so to speak pushers will need some time consuming work, I don't say that is not doable but I don't know if worth spending days for a task where other Bot types will not even blink to a path.
If in CM-4 fist area was with troubles, here we speak about a general rejection. Computing reachable paths in such useless large areas will simply exhaust engine. Polge was right saying that entering the network is very expensive, and here I fired large paths using only 388 PathNodes. I will fool around, probably pushers remain the answer.
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Re: Botpathing contest ?

Postby Red_Fist » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:18 am

Chicken,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, my stock bots are some bad ass mofo's :P My bots will kill your mutant lame no mind of their own fake bots.
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