AlarmPoints triggering without Player sight?

[editor Dave]

Hey guys,

I have a problem regarding Alarm/Patrol Points. I want a WarLord to appear flying from the underground towards the sky, then to notice the player. The problem is:

- if I use AlarmPoints, the WarLord won't do anything, unless it sees me (that's the point of those actors, anyway)
- if I use Patrol Points, the Warlord flies in a snail's tempo and has no impact at all, and you can't dsiplay an animation when the Warlord sees you as there is no "bNoFail" option for Patrol points.

Is there a way for my vision to come to life?

[sektor2111]

Have you even tried to trigger it with a trigger ?

[editor Dave]

Good joke

Of course I did. After those failed attempts I had to find out via the internet, or specifically, the official manual that AlarmPoints are only designed to work on player sight and Patrol points (with bDelayedPatrol) on a corresponding Trigger.

Btw, during my play tests I also figured out that a WarLord will only fly via Patrol or Alarm Points if it has an edge to "Jump off" from, he won't fly in the sky from an even surface - no matter where you placed your Navigation Points.

[sektor2111]

Dude have you tried to trigger Warlord ? I'll bet not. Have you ever tested DistanceViewtriggers ?
What joke ? You don't seems to know about triggering creatures as I can see... Too bad...
Edit:

Btw, during my play tests I also figured out that a WarLord will only fly via Patrol or Alarm Points if it has an edge to "Jump off" from, he won't fly in the sky from an even surface - no matter where you placed your Navigation Points.

May I do the paths setup there ?

At a mean time:

AI attributes menu:

bHasRangedAttack: specifies whether creature can attack from beyond melee range.

bMovingRangedAttack: specifies whether creature can use his ranged attack while moving (assuming creature supports this mode).

bCanStrafe: Specifies whether creature can strafe.

bFixedStart: If true, creature always starts from where it was placed. If false, then may start from alternate position depending on its orders (see below).

bQuiet: If true, makes less noise when wandering around

bTeamLeader: Leader of his team (as defined by the TeamTag). There should be only one per team.

bIgnoreFriends: Default false. If true, creature doesn’t react to friend's noises.

bDelayedPatrol: If true, and creature’s orders are Patroling, then the creature will begin his patrol only when it is triggered. However, it will break off this patrol and react

to the player if it sees him. To force the creature to continue to his destination, you can also specify the patrol destination in the creature’s alarmtag.

bHateWhenTriggered: Creature will change its attitude to hate the player when triggered by the player.

TeamTag: Creature team to which this creature belongs. As long as the team leader is alive, creatures on the same team will coordinate with each other.. If the species can speak, then creatures on the team will talk to each other.

Skill: Added skill of this creature. Default is 0. For example, if Skill = 1, then the creature will act like a difficulty 2 creature when the difficulty setting = 1.

SightRadius: Maximum sight distance. Creature’s likelihood of seeing other pawns depends on how far away the other pawn is relative to the creature’s sight radius. the other pawn’s visibility, and (soon) how well lit the other pawn is.

PeripheralVision: The cosine of the maximum angle of peripheral vision. A creature which can see 90 degrees to each side (180 degrees total) would have PeripheralVision = ?.

HearingThreshold: Minimum scaled noise loudness which can be heard. While the exact hearing range depends on the creature’s alertness, a good rule of thumb is that creatures can hear a typical loud noise if there is a line of sight to the noise location, and HearingThreshold < 200 / (distance to the noise in Unreal units). For example, a creature with HearingThreshold = 0.4 could typically hear noises if they were no more than 500 units away. A hearing threshold of 0.2 translates to a max hearing distance of 1000 units. Creatures can never hear noises which are more than 2800 units away.

Orders: See Orders section below.

OrderTag: See Orders section below.

TimeBetweenAttacks: Time in seconds between ranged attack barrages (which may include multiple shots).

MeleeRange: Maximum distance from target (not including collision radius of this creature or its target) to launch a melee attack.

Aggressiveness: Typically in the range 0.0 to 1.0. Primarily affects attitude changes (more aggressive creatures will continue to fight, even against a stronger player, less aggressive creatures will be more quick to flee). May also have an effect on tactical combat decisions. Note that creatures will only run away if they have a home base (except for Nali and cow)

Visibility: How visible is this pawn to other creatures (note - does not affect rendering!) 0 = invisible, 128 = normal, 255 = highly visible.

AttitudeToPlayer: Initial attitude to player (may change depending on player’s actions, and creature's aggressiveness.

ATTITUDE_Fear - creature will try to run away

ATTITUDE_Hate - creature will attack player

ATTITUDE_Frenzy - Indiscriminate, berserk attack (no fear, lower accuracy)

ATTITUDE_Threaten - Creature will assume a threatening posture

ATTITUDE_Ignore - Creature will ignore player

ATTITUDE_Friendly - Creature will fight player’s enemies, See Note #1

ATTITUDE_Follow - Creature will follow player (not yet implemented).

Intelligence: Creature’s intelligence

BRAINS_None - amoeba like - only reacts to immediate stimulus

BRAINS_Reptile

BRAINS_Mammal

BRAINS_Human

ReFireRate: Likelihood of firing again immediately after a ranged attack (values from 0 to 1 with higher values indicating a higher probability).

CombatStyle: Tactical decision making during combat. Value between 0.0 and 1.0 Higher means the creature is more likely to charge, try to melee, etc.

AlarmTag: If AlarmTag is set, when the creature sees the player, it will (at all costs) first go to the actor with the same Tag as its AlarmTag. Friendly creatures will wait for the player as they move towards this actor. This can be used either to have friendly creatures lead the player to some area or object, or for unfriendly creatures to try to trigger events or set up initial attack formations. For example, you could have three Kraal in a room. Two attack you, while the other runs for a button which will lock the door behind you and sound an alarm. Alternatively, you could have them spread out in formation, seeking cover or advantageous positions when they see you. AlarmPoints (see below) are designed to provide extensive scripting control when used with the AlarmTag.

SharedAlarmTag: For each group of creatures who have the same string in this field, one of them will choose it to be his alarmtag (overriding any existing alarmtag). You can use this to provide some randomness in which creature performs some important action.

DropWhenKilled: Creature will drop one of these when it is killed.

FirstHatePlayerEvent: Creature will trigger this event the first time he decides to attack the player.

to read bDelayedPatrol carefully, bHateWhenTriggered, etc.

[Red_Fist]

Is why I hardly ever use alarm points, they have to see you.

What about the shared alarm ? maybe it connects them to places that they don't see you, I never tried that.

[JackGriffin]

Dave, Nels is completely correct. I was having much the same problem with making monsters attack the player's base up on a hill. I couldn't get them to do it nicely because most of the time the players had no line of sight to the monsters. Nels walked me through how to trigger them and it worked. He knows what he's talking about.

[editor Dave]

Sorry if I came off as rude, but his most basic question through me off a little after already having spent several hours figuring this out. I very much appreciate all your help!

I was about to create a demonstration room but I guess for now it is better if I describe more in detail what works as of right now, because Im not entirely sure if sektor understood me all the way through. ANd creating this room would take some time as well because I want to delete any custom file dependancies.

I can navigate the WarLord through the underground until the surface via PatrolPoints using a trigger and bDelayedPatrol, yes. However, the WarLord flies very slowly as he is in his patrol state. If I dont specify an order, the WarLord wont take the route of the PatrolPoints. If I set it to Ambushing, the WarLord again waits to see the player, so only "Patroling" seems to work with the PatrolPoints.

Now, if I compare this with the flying animations for AlarmPoints, the speed of the WarLord is way higher. And this is the speed I want. However, then the WarLord only acts upon seeing me (and this fact is also being supported by the Alarm Point section in the quoted manual). Now that I think of it, I havent tried out improving the hearing ability, but I dont think it will work. I also have not yet tried to make a fake floor where the WarLord could see me from below, but I wont see him - mainly because I was hoping to find a more elegant solution, but also because the area is too big tobe able to effectively do that.

This is why I asked the question in the title, but this question can be replaced by different question that would all solve the issue equally. So I am looking for one of these:
1. Is it possible to trigger a pawn to follow AlarmPoints without seeing the player?
2. Is it possible for a pawn to "run" and not only "walk" PatrolPoints?
3. While writing this post, a third option came to mind, but I have forgotten it again... maybe you come up with something or I will remember. ^^

[JackGriffin]

It's a normal reaction to Nels, don't worry about it. He used to throw me off a little too until I got to know him. He's just blunt, and that has no off switch. I don't know if it's cultural or if he's just prone to asshole-ism, or he's like a bunch of us and mildly Aspergers

I will tell you that a few people have stayed in the pocket with me on a problem for days at a time, working it out. Nels is one of those guys. If you look past the differences in personality you'll find a pretty smart dude that has a good heart. It just doesn't come across like that all the time.

That'll be 5 dollars US Nels. Send it to my paypal.

[Barbie]

2. Is it possible for a pawn to "run" and not only "walk" PatrolPoints?

It should work with a custom pawn:

Code: Select all

class FastPatrolingWarLord expands WarLord;

function PlayWalking() {
 	if (Physics == PHYS_Walking && ! IsInState('Patroling'))
		LoopAnim('Walk', -1.4/GroundSpeed,, 0.4);
	else
		LoopAnim('Fly', -1.7/AirSpeed,, 0.4);
}

state Patroling {

	function BeginState() {
		WalkingSpeed = AirSpeed;
		Super.BeginState();
	}
	function EndState() {
		WalkingSpeed = Class'Warlord'.default.WalkingSpeed;
		Super.EndState();
	}
}

Test map attached:

[sektor2111]

Is why I hardly ever use alarm points, they have to see you.

Pretty FALSE, you did not even read what I posted. It is why people are messing up with information in front on them and why sometimes I have a strange reaction because I'm very confused about your reactions even if the answer is under nose or problem was debated, at PMH (PlanetMonsterHunt) was a such a topic in the past. bHateWhenTriggered is self explanatory, you did not play Demons][ because it's crashing right ? Seriously... I have to setup a scenario each time because after 17 years of UT you still need basics ? Where were you all these years ?
In such a scenario you might do some pathing stunts and probably Warlord will move how you want. And now excuse my fast recalls but I have never seen a Warlord in BoomBoomBridge to fail in launching at player (from a high position flier monster doesn't fail to attack down way) - amazingly it can do that without really to see player. since last year when XC_PathBuilder has been released (thank you Higor again) you can do exactly what you want with Warlord, Skaarj, etc.
In order to make a good A.I. scenario, first you have to know them because this will need a default compatible geometry.
First answer was

Good joke

and then I went more confused especially when we are doing SP maps but we have lacks at ScriptedPawn setup knowledge so this means those maps have no A.I. tweaking . In such case I'm not even bother to look at them because I like maps with some action and a minimal A.I. tweaking around a story.
Warlord running in patrol ? NOPE. Default Warlord no, because this is not logic at all. Imagine a human guard in a perimeter running like an idiot while is patrolling - but patrolling is doable in high speed using AlarmPoints with pauses after triggering monster. I might look like a stupid with Aspengers (like Jack said) but that guardian guy running for sure would need a specialist in mental diseases - in my logic when you run around you can make noise and you cannot hear well environment.
@Barbie - can I discard using new classes as long as with stock we can do some stunts ?

Also Dave mentioned some link, by reading there look what I found

Triggering creatures

Creatures that have not engaged an enemy can be triggered by a trigger whose event equals the creature’s tag. Creatures that are triggered will make whatever instigated the trigger their enemy. You can use this to have creatures ignore the player until a certain event happens, such as crossing some threshold (using ATTITUDE_Ignore) - if bHateWhenTriggered is true, the creature will change its attitude to hate the instigator. Creatures will also trigger their event when they die. You can use triggers in conjunction with bDelayedPatrol to cause a creature to start a scripted set of actions when triggered by the player (without noticing the player).

Lemme ask: It's that hard to read information even in the same thread ? YES, it is...

[editor Dave]

Thanks for your help, even though it was kind of wrapped in some unecessary ranting. I mean, I can freely admit that I am a noob when it comes to scripted events since I have only done it extensively for like 2 times. I haven't released much and in the past years I was focusing on geometry (with events in mind). For me, there is nothing more boring than a map without thrilling enemy encounters or other scripted events, but in the past I only needed the Ambushing or Patroling command and my use of AlarmPoints was fishy to say the least. So I'm glad I can improve upon that area. The thing that was missing were not the triggers, that's why I posted

Good joke

and sorry again for that. It was:

bHateWhenTriggered is self explanatory,

which was not really self-explanatory as I assumed this would put pawns only in the "Attitude_Hate" state. I thought they would still wait for the player as every enemy has this state as its default. The manual doesnt clarify this either - at least I couldn't gather the important information that pawn are being "alarmed":

Creature will change its attitude to hate the player when triggered by the player.

if bHateWhenTriggered is true, the creature will change its attitude to hate the instigator

But actually, this puts them in the position as if they saw the player, so Alarm Points work then. I also did not try this first because of the linked manual

You can use triggers in conjunction with bDelayedPatrol to cause a creature to start a scripted set of actions when triggered by the player (without noticing the player).

Lemme ask: It's that hard to read information even in the same thread ? YES, it is...

Like even here it says "in conjunction with bDelayedPatrol" which obviously refers to PatrolPoints, and the sections about AlarmPoints repeat the fact that they only work on Player sight:

If AlarmTag is set, when the creature sees the player,

Alarmpoints are designed to be used in conjunction with the alarmtag to cause creatures to perform complex actions upon seeing a player.

Well, this is why I was probably as confused as you, sektor. But now everything works how I imagined it, thanks again!

@Barbie: Thanks for your help. But I too always like to look for "retail" solutions!
@Jack: I know, he's a nice guy in his actions. Even if I do not post that often, I lurk often enough to know that. And I am glad I could solve this issue without him doing it. Give this man a break! And I can keep my 5$.

[sektor2111]

Regarding to this triggering monster chapter.
Because Epic were helping with UScript which is not a very heavy programming language (except some stunts) you can do other things with creatures. Often people were interested to copy Bot state to monsters crashing games. Response is not ROAMING, response is a small actor (around 5 kb) which can be added in maps and... initializing a nice hunter a la ScriptedPawn. Why is doable ? Because Bot is roamer based on ITEMS, Monster doesn't care about items, if you tell it that "player was insulting it" or whatever nasty thing, and that player dared to stay in game, monster will track it (not without quitting as some genius said - he doesn't know monsters anyway) but is enough addicted in finding player with any matter - if Path-Net has no breaks. If let's say ground units might have difficulties, aerial pawns - fliers have a better orientation in finding the goal - I have tested that so I assure you that I'm not bullshitting. So to refrain, if monster is started against a player he will discard seeing or not player in that moment and will start hunting it shortly.
To notice:
If you move fast, a fly by example will quit tracking you after some time, depending on stuff added might keep going or not, this is doable.
I repeat, an important stuff is path-net in map, which I repeat again, by using XC_PathBuilder you can draw paths how you need and pawn will work as you need. Study Pathing (not only Bot Pathing) and you'll find a wonderful side of this game - I was always fascinated by this stuff.

[Red_Fist]

sooooooooo, what about "shared" alarm tag ?

[sektor2111]

Do read Dave's linked doc.

[editor Dave]

sooooooooo, what about "shared" alarm tag ?

Oh right, I forgot about your input! However, just judging from the manual, this function is there to make the game less stale by providing some uncertain factor.

SharedAlarmTag: For each group of creatures who have the same string in this field, one of them will choose it to be his alarmtag (overriding any existing alarmtag). You can use this to provide some randomness in which creature performs some important action.

This doesn't sound like it would've worked as it doesn't change the fact that the pawn with the SharedAlarmTag must be alarmed somehow.

I repeat, an important stuff is path-net in map, which I repeat again, by using XC_PathBuilder you can draw paths how you need and pawn will work as you need. Study Pathing (not only Bot Pathing) and you'll find a wonderful side of this game - I was always fascinated by this stuff.

This is an interesting perspective and while thinking about it, it makes sense that Bots and Pawn are coded so differently. I wondered in that regard: Do Unreal creatures, even though they don't look for items, use InventorySpots as part of their paths?