Terra's MonsterHunt and other tutorials

Tutorials and discussions about Mapping - Introduce your own ones!
Terraniux
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Terra's MonsterHunt and other tutorials

Post by Terraniux » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:18 pm

MH
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MONSTERHUNT TUTORIAL PART 1

This covers - MH generally, backstory and installation

http://crystalunreal.com/Downloads/Mons ... _Part1.pdf

Managed to type a lot of pages furthermore. I decided to make this in a separate topic in order to make it more searchable.
Going to edit the format of this first post later on. Will make it all in one. Adding more tuts in this first post.

So here are the first three official downloads. Instead of reading the whole text as one big book, releasing pages , will get players more comfortable. I hope :oops:
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MONSTERHUNT TUTORIAL PART 2 Update!
http://crystalunreal.com/Downloads/Mons ... t2.pdf.PDF
This covers actual mapping and progressing, and inspiration from maps.


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MONSTERHUNT TUTORIAL PART 2.1 Update!

- added more actors : Trigger - Dispatcher - SpecialEvents, and their applies in MH.
- Changed the layout / markings a little bit.
- Updated some minor stuff.
Please enjoy
http://crystalunreal.com/Downloads/MH-Tuto2.1update.pdf

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MONSTERHUNT TUTORIAL PART 2.2 Update!

- added more actors and monster stuff! The real monster thing! The health and pickups will come!
Please enjoy
http://crystalunreal.com/Downloads/MH-Tuto2.2update.pdf

< this is still in progress. Describing all actors takes time! >
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Creature Factories , simple tutorial, Part 1 of 2.


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DM
to be filed later...
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CTF
to be filed later...
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AS


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DOM
to be filed later...
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Mapping



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Other / General / Stuff -- ?
to be filed later...
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Comments, tips and improvements are welcome.
Last edited by Terraniux on Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:12 am, edited 8 times in total.

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OjitroC
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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other Tutorials.

Post by OjitroC » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:00 am

These are interesting and informative, and easy to follow. Just a few points
  1. 1 What about advice to the mapper to check the log periodically for warnings/errors about things (like stuff falling out of the world) that might be overlooked when viewing the map in the editor?

    2 Interest and variety can be added to a map by using destructable decos that 'spawn' monsters (here I am thinking of recent maps by Red_Fist and sektor2111, for example) or by having triggerable monsters (a la StoneWoman) or creating ambushes with triggered panels in boxes or walls (a map on this forum several months ago had several examples of this).

    3 Any advice on the placement of pickups (weapons, ammo, health, etc) and of monsters, and how to achieve a reasonable balance between pickups and monsters (numbers, types, health, etc, etc)?

    4 Any monsters that shouldn't be used in MH maps because they give rise to errors or potentially fatal problems (that is, spam loads of log warnings or could crash the map)?

    5 Any monsters that are, in your opinion, underused in MH maps and could help to add interest to a map?
Oh yes and don't spawn too many monsters from the same spawnpoint when the player has a clear line of sight and there are no other threats - there's a map by Thunderbolt in which a number of mercenaries are spawned from the same point and it is possible for the player to stand there and headshot them as they spawn. There is another spawnpoint but that is some distance away and the player is out of the line of sight of the mercenaries being spawned there.

As an aside, you include MH-Tarmation2 in your list of honorable MH maps. I would certainly agree that the design and layout are good and it has a good balance and a clear route to progress through the map. There are though a couple of issues with it that do detract a little from its overall quality. There is a semi-circular sliding door in the area with the pupae leading into the hillside and to the wide corridor which runs down the 'room' with the brutes and skaarj officers - when I played the map earier, this door got blocked by monsters on the inside. I was able to clear it by shooting through the door! It would otherwise have been impossible to progress (this is something that could be raised in your tutorial - make sure that doors are designed in such a way that they can't be blocked from opening). The other issue is that parts of the floor in the 'room' where the brutes/skaarj officers are is not solid - it is possible to sink into it or, in some places, to fall right through to the passageway below. I assume that this is not deliberate.
Last edited by OjitroC on Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Terraniux
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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other Tutorials.

Post by Terraniux » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:14 am

I thank you for all your points Ojitroc.
1. I'd like to have a coders advice on this, such as yourself ( or are you not? , you are right?) :noidea
I do check the map log often, but check the gameplay more, logs are considered more valuable to backboners here than me.
IF you have an advice Oji, let me know, I copy / paste it in the Tutorial.

2 About those map and pawns, sorry haven't paid much interest into those yet. Triggered panels sounds good.

3. This is still in progress, I think this depends on the very map.

4 Monsters are still a part I'm about to cover. For I can only address to this as mapper, nothing about their code. I will think about this! :thuup:
I know the Queen and Warlord have their issues but ....... .... this is in progress.

5 Any monsters that are, in your opinion, underused in MH maps and could help to add interest to a map?
Oh yes there is. Actually 2. The weakest of both kinds. Nali and the Pupae.

Help me remind me of the Tarmation map. I will respond this later. I think this is a GODLIKE MAP. For I have checkout thousands of MH maps, but I truly bow down to that mapper. Such skills , details and patience. :gj:


I thank you for feed back Ojitroc. Thanks again. :thuup:

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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other Tutorials.

Post by OjitroC » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:33 am

Terraniux wrote: 1. I'd like to have a coders advice on this, such as yourself ( or are you not? , you are right?) :noidea
No, not at all - I just play a lot and tinker around a bit with monsters, not coding though.
Terraniux wrote: 2 About those map and pawns, sorry haven't paid much interest into those yet. Triggered panels sounds good.
I think that kind of ambush is not used enough. There's an Unreal map (can't remember the name) with a deadend corridor - as the player reaches the end and then comes back along the corridor, the lights go out and bars come out of the wall to block going forward or back, and skaarj warriors burst from panels in the wall - pretty scary the first time! It is, of course, true that like traps ambushes will only catch those who haven't played the map before (though some coding to randomise if they happen or what comes out would be interesting).

PS : I edited my previous post to include another comment as you were posting your reply.

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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other Tutorials.

Post by Terraniux » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:39 am

There's an Unreal map (can't remember the name) with a deadend corridor - as the player reaches the end and then comes back along the corridor, the lights go out and bars come out of the wall to block going forward or back, and skaarj warriors burst from panels in the wall - pretty scary the first time!
Rrajigar Mine ? or known as DIgX or MH-DIg something.

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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other Tutorials.

Post by OjitroC » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:00 am

Terraniux wrote: Rrajigar Mine ?
Could be, will have to check it out.

Here's a test map with (at the end) skaarj emerging from triggered crates viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12242&hilit=study#p97915

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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other Tutorials.

Post by JackGriffin » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:59 am

I did an update pupae for one of the guys at OldUnreal. It made them way more dangerous because they no longer froze when attacking someone on a ramp or stairs. I also added the ability for them to make small hops if they needed to. This didn't make them overpowered but it sure made them tougher to deal with. You are right that pupae are just overlooked and they make a good opponent in the right environments.
So long, and thanks for all the fish

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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other Tutorials.

Post by sektor2111 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:48 am

@Readers Generally. Points to take in account:
Monsterhunt in original ALWAYS will spread errors in logs but you will have to learn when MAP does crap or MH does crap or UT fails. These are 3 points to watch - BECAUSE:
- MH errors are vaporized in newer versions up to None error;
- UT - ScriptedPawn aka Monster also is crapped and even crashing often in teaming problems - not going to mention Monster Leader sh!te - in XCGE and well polished servers these also are nulified - no concern here - I know it's hard to believe but is doable manually because No One will update UT officially as I can see;
- Other UT things - pickuplog from that world/local log - which a sane minded admin will not use in MH servers because makes no sense - No one gives a damn if Skaarj got weapon in order to log crap;
- MAP'S Errors - these are caused by specific stuff (MyLevel as goal) a la BAD USED as a direct sample PrecipitationGenerator - good maps are doing sucks in server at this point. THIS IS THE "NEVER IGNORE" LOG problem because this is Mapping fault;
- bad setup as general - messing up stock actors - spawners into void, Monsters into void, monsters triggering themselves, bad mover usage, using Non Mapping actors as mapping actors, and the list is way too long - and THIS, is Mapper's garbage not that much UT;

I said these because you cannot have a clean console in a plain default MonsterHunt game/server but NEVER - and you will intend to say: - lol, I won't map nothing here because I'm not skilled around this MH chapter which is not helpful at all." But in fact you have to figure which errors are those that can be ignored because they don't exist in good servers, and which errors are coming from YOUR map setup. That's why MH mapping done by noob mappers can be called "MH crapping" because this is exactly what it is regarding to your feelings toward my poems posted - it's pure reality. In order to learn this chapter it is advisable to look at popular good (claimed good in public places by CODERS not new comers) maps first, and get over yourself with dumb ideas in your first mapping period. Fist step is making simple simple setup.

Factor 1 is knowing SP mapping as main cause, as main MH mapping engine - ScriptedPawn on purpose - then you can compare what monster does in a SP map with the same monster in a MH map - several things will not work or will work too rare. Doable by intensively doing setup in some closed ambience without sharing nothing outta your lab - keep the trash buried and ignore those asking for them - never release your 200 failures.

All being said you don't have to be scared by MH + UT soup (according to troubles chapter which they have) as much as you have to be scared by your own ideas when you do some "MH map" which heads to a MAP fixing forever quest when the fix is done by Non-Coders persons.

Aside - as shown by Oijtroc - there are customized things doable with UE1 which plain mappers will never do without knowing a bit of UScript - I'm ignoring Nog's points that mapper is not advisable that much to know coding - plain "maps" are thousands - player is fascinated by special setup not the same stupid brute awaiting redeemer fired by player to gain score or similar setup in 200 Maps.

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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other Tutorials.

Post by OjitroC » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:38 am

sektor2111 wrote:... there are customized things doable with UE1 which plain mappers will never do without knowing a bit of UScript - I'm ignoring Nog's points that mapper is not advisable that much to know coding - plain "maps" are thousands - player is fascinated by special setup not the same stupid brute awaiting redeemer fired by player to gain score or similar setup in 200 Maps.
@Terraniux
I think that's a very valid point, becoming more so as time goes on and something you may wish to consider including and elaborating upon in your tutorial. MH mappers do need to be more innovative and to make more use of the customized things now available - here think also of the stuff done in DM-CMC-MansionofChaos by JackGriffin and papercoffee that opens up a whole new realm of possibilities. Of course, it does point towards MH mappers knowing some coding or to more collaborative working with coders on MH maps.

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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other Tutorials.

Post by Terraniux » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:30 pm

Ok, thank you Nels and Oji. I will make use of those reactions. Not sure under which chapter I should do that, or make.

The tutorial is going to speak only about making MH, with the actual topic ' how do I create maps' left aside. Going to add more links to mapping tutorials in this topic and in the pdf. This is told in the preface.
If I should write how to map too, you are forcing me to end up with a 250+ whopping big book of text. My poor fingers. I focus purely on MonsterHunt, not Mapping.
So I will slightly cover it, just a litle bit. Like: do place Redeemers on special places, not in the wide open.



But where to place monsters, where to place weapons? How do you feel about this and that?
This should up to the mappers creativity and be feedback from the actual topic, that mappers create. :agree1:


This afternoon im going to type some more pages. Wish me luck.

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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other Tutorials.

Post by nogardilaref » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:59 pm

OjitroC wrote:
sektor2111 wrote:... there are customized things doable with UE1 which plain mappers will never do without knowing a bit of UScript - I'm ignoring Nog's points that mapper is not advisable that much to know coding - plain "maps" are thousands - player is fascinated by special setup not the same stupid brute awaiting redeemer fired by player to gain score or similar setup in 200 Maps.
@Terraniux
I think that's a very valid point, becoming more so as time goes on and something you may wish to consider including and elaborating upon in your tutorial. MH mappers do need to be more innovative and to make more use of the customized things now available - here think also of the stuff done in DM-CMC-MansionofChaos by JackGriffin and papercoffee that opens up a whole new realm of possibilities. Of course, it does point towards MH mappers knowing some coding or to more collaborative working with coders on MH maps.
Then why don't mappers just go ahead and do things in native C++ while they're at it?
Given that the headers are open source, anyone is free to do even more than that and be 1000x more innovative by coding things natively?

If your answer is because C++ is too hard or is too low level, then allow me to tell you that the same is true from a "plain" mapper's perspective when it comes to UScript.
If your answer is because they can and will fuck things up doing it in C++, potentially even crashing the whole thing, then the same is also true if a non-coder suddenly starts to code only the specific things he/she needs for his/her map, regardless of what this means concerning other stuff which might run on that map.
If your answer is because a C++ bundle cannot be trusted, the same is also true for custom code within a map.
If your answer is because you cannot as easily distribute it, well this is a valid reason though. :tongue:

My point here is, if you're a mapper, and you're genuinely interested in coding your stuff, be my guest and go at it.
However, a mapper who doesn't know and isn't remotely interested in coding things, should not be forced to do so in order to accomplish at least certain basic tasks, otherwise do you honestly expect that a map with custom scripted things, from someone who's a novice at coding at best and isn't very willing at it, is going to run fine and play along with other mods and whatnot? The answer may surprise you (spoiler alert: no).

Hence, I think it's preferable that an actual modder (or team of modders) with already a fair amount of programming knowledge and how things work, builds the set of needed tools for the mappers to use, because at least that way the mappers will still be able to do what they want, without necessarily compromising the rest of the game, because it's incredibly easy to code a turd, is not as easy to actually do something that works well across the board.

So it baffles me how a guy so focused in quality such as Sektor advocates for something so contradictory.

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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other Tutorials.

Post by JackGriffin » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:27 pm

The very best way this all works is the old division of labor. What's going on right now with Beef and I is a good example. He is mapping a project and needs a certain set of things done in a custom way. He advertises the need and I responded. Through PM's he tells me what he wants, I let him know it's possible, and when he's ready I'll make it for him.

New mappers read up to the point that they see they will "have to learn to code some" and they bail out. It should be common knowledge that a cadre of specialized guys are always around to do this for them. They only need to learn to map if that's what they want to do. The heavy lifting of coding doesn't need to concern them at all if they don't want it to.

I wish more people could work like paper and I did on the mansion. Collaboration yields incredible results if you give it a chance.
So long, and thanks for all the fish

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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other Tutorials.

Post by OjitroC » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:28 pm

I really don't want to divert this thread away from its core topic (Terraniux's tutorials) but
nogardilaref wrote: However, a mapper who doesn't know and isn't remotely interested in coding things, should not be forced to do so in order to accomplish at least certain basic tasks, otherwise do you honestly expect that a map with custom scripted things, from someone who's a novice at coding at best and isn't very willing at it, is going to run fine and play along with other mods and whatnot? The answer may surprise you (spoiler alert: no)..
I realise that, so that's why I said what I said in the second part of the last sentence in my quote. I wasn't really talking about basic tasks though but about introducing some variety and interest by moving away from, or mixing with, the basic approach of placing monsters in maps or spawning them from factories. Presumably though, the stuff I referred that's been done by sektor2111 and Red_Fist can be 'borrowed' fairly easily and triggered ambushes are again, presumably, not that difficult to do
nogardilaref wrote: Hence, I think it's preferable that an actual modder (or team of modders) with already a fair amount of programming knowledge and how things work, builds the set of needed tools for the mappers to use, because at least that way the mappers will still be able to do what they want, without necessarily compromising the rest of the game, because it's incredibly easy to code a turd, is not as easy to actually do something that works well across the board.
Yes, of course - or a mapper collaborates with a coder on a map?
nogardilaref wrote: So it baffles me how a guy so focused in quality such as Sektor advocates for something so contradictory.
There are, surely, a variety of approaches to this, each of which is valid and works in its particular context?

I have more ideas on adding interest and variety to monster hunt maps (the core of the point I am making) but will keep them for another post to save this getting TLDR.

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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other Tutorials.

Post by Terraniux » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:48 pm

I adjust my format in the first post. I will discuss the coding subject later. Let me know what you think. Or should I just place links to youtube?

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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other Tutorials.

Post by nogardilaref » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:48 pm

OjitroC wrote:
nogardilaref wrote: Hence, I think it's preferable that an actual modder (or team of modders) with already a fair amount of programming knowledge and how things work, builds the set of needed tools for the mappers to use, because at least that way the mappers will still be able to do what they want, without necessarily compromising the rest of the game, because it's incredibly easy to code a turd, is not as easy to actually do something that works well across the board.
Yes, of course - or a mapper collaborates with a coder on a map?
Yeah, sure, as that falls exactly on the coder doing code, and the mapper doing the map, so it all works out as you mentioned previously. :)
OjitroC wrote:
nogardilaref wrote: So it baffles me how a guy so focused in quality such as Sektor advocates for something so contradictory.
There are, surely, a variety of approaches to this, each of which is valid and works in its particular context?

I have more ideas on adding interest and variety to monster hunt maps (the core of the point I am making) but will keep them for another post to save this getting TLDR.
I won't go into much detail either here, but it all comes to "abstraction".
There's a reason why there is such a thing as several layers to software, starting from assembly/C++ (lowest level), up to UScript in this case (mid level), and finally up there the Editor to create maps (high level), and the idea of having higher levels to software is so that you can only focus on the higher level and never have to worry about the lower levels, isolating each layer from interference from another layer, and from their respective complexity, as anything done at the Editor level will never interfere with what the UScript side of things expects, let alone the C++ part, that's why a map done using the Editor alone, works the same for everyone using the same underlying layers.

It's the same reason why 99% of the UScript modders do not even dare to touch native C++ code.
Therefore, regardless of the approach, abstraction is key to actually do it right, and has always been in the entire history of software development.

This is why Epic developed something like Blueprint and killed UScript entirely, they wanted to give more power to the mappers, but without forcing them to learn actual programming, and in a way it worked out well, so at most a similar thing could be done for UT99 as a matter of fact, instead of forcing mappers to learn any coding at all.
While for those still wanting to write lines of code, they can do so in C++, but in a more friendly environment from what it seems and far easier to debug from within their own environment, unlike UT99.

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