Terra's MonsterHunt and other tutorials

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sektor2111
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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other tuts 'n stuff.

Post by sektor2111 »

nogardilaref wrote:Then why don't mappers just go ahead and do things in native C++ while they're at it?
I did not say nothing about C++ which was too complex even for EPIC and UTPG - Yeah, they have correctly failed here. I'm not gonna mention that I've asked how to setup a server for those mods/maps requiring DLL files for plain player which nobody has answered YET here. Can we quit going into OFF-topic now ? Already we know the risk of loading C++ content - it's really to powerful and not needed for simple things doable with UScript.
MyLevel is EXACTLY for MAPPING did you get what I mean ? Not only for custom textures, sounds and music, is place for a HuntNode - exactly not only for colored walls and a new sort of instrumental mooing. Simple lines making a different Level is doable without to even know any PHP, Java, Phyton and any C++ or VisualBasic or any other "Ruin-My-Brain" damn thing with heavy control around OS used to run it. It's Mapping and scripting simple needs using a handy Script from EDITOR ONLY- THAT simple.
But if you feel great, light me with a MH map with a lot of programming stuff and a manual about How To setup a server for plain vanilla player containing such stuff. I'm that one who might go interested, is not place only for XC_Engine, I'm willing to check "NG_Engine" - if it would be done :mrgreen:.

In Mean-time - tutorial perhaps will setup a light about monster "reset" by Shrimp - None fixes for SkaarjTrooper pawns - solutions embedded in map - yeah, doable, boundaries until DevPath goes retarded (no alarmpoint and no patrol from any kind), etc. with Movers, Counter, and those default borks which a mapper should not go trapped with them - I purposedly didn't say anything about Bot yet, explaining why in a simple phrase: Whoever need a MH with Bots, first wise move would be changing default's Bot core - that ass is not for MH.
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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other tuts 'n stuff.

Post by Terraniux »

sektor2111 wrote: Can we quit going into OFF-topic now ?

I''d like that please.So returning to original post / question.

How is this format, and the MH tutorial. Is is clear and understandeable for everyone so far? Any suggestions?
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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other tuts 'n stuff.

Post by sektor2111 »

A question from part2
doc2 wrote: Unreal Tournament game; v453 or GOTY or any working up-to-date working
what's with v453 ? Where can I find that ?
Edit: The same as in Part1
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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other tuts 'n stuff.

Post by nogardilaref »

@sektor2111: Allow me then just to state the following (spoiler tagging this in respect for the topic):
Spoiler
Static resources such as textures, sounds, music and whatnot, are fully namespaced by their package (and group? not sure).
Meaning that you can for instance have 2 textures with the same name, despite being completely distinct textures, such as one being in MyLevel and another in some other package, they will never ever conflict with one another, and they will never interact with one another ("interaction" being the keyword here) so this is fine.

The same is not true for classes (UScript). While they are also namespaced by their package to an extent, that extent ends with things like "IsA" and the class they extend, used throughout many mods and standard UT code as well, which makes even the creation of a simple class something inherently dangerous if you don't know what you're doing.
So if someone doesn't have any programming background, especially in languages like C, PHP or Java, that person generally doesn't have a clue what a namespace is, and how to manage these things in namespace-less languages like C and UScript.

And this is just an example, as the fact that a class "interacts" with the level in some custom way will for sure lead to problems sooner or later, if the one doing the code has next to no clue what they are doing, resulting in broken maps, or worse, resulting in maps which are just mildly broken when used with some mod, only for the mod developer to check that it was the mapper him/herself who messed things up in the first place (now imagine this multiplied by many mappers).

For instance, even you, whom seem experienced in coding (at least UScript), gave a "HuntNode" example. I am not sure if this is really how you ever named something in MyLevel or if it was just an example, but this is the perfect example of the kind of name which should NOT be given to something you include in MyLevel.
Even within a mod I came to learn eventually that such names are bad as well, but it's 100x worse if it's bound to specific maps.
If you wish to continue this discussion in another topic let me know.
Last edited by nogardilaref on Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other tuts 'n stuff.

Post by papercoffee »

Terraniux wrote:
sektor2111 wrote: Can we quit going into OFF-topic now ?

I''d like that please.So returning to original post / question.
@Terra if you want, I can split the topic into two threads. One for the tutorial and one for the discussion.

@EVERYONE If you want to make a tutorial thread please consider a mass of discussion clogging it up.
Therefore it would be advisable to start a second threat in "General Discussions" where the discussion can be outsourced.
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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other tuts 'n stuff.

Post by Terraniux »

papercoffee wrote:
Terraniux wrote:
sektor2111 wrote: Can we quit going into OFF-topic now ?

I''d like that please.So returning to original post / question.
@Terra if you want, I can split the topic into two threads. One for the tutorial and one for the discussion.

@EVERYONE If you want to make a tutorial thread please consider a mass of discussion clogging it up.
Therefore it would be advisable to start a second threat in "General Discussions" where the discussion can be outsourced.
I don't mind. You as the admin knows whats best here. Do as you please.
A question from part2

doc2 wrote:
Unreal Tournament game; v453 or GOTY or any working up-to-date working

what's with v453 ? Where can I find that ?
Edit: The same as in Part1

I think I was a bit tired. 453 :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: 436 is the latest right or ??437??
Thanks for noticing that, will update it.
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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other tuts 'n stuff.

Post by OjitroC »

papercoffee wrote: @Terra if you want, I can split the topic into two threads. One for the tutorial and one for the discussion.
That makes a lot of sense - what about having a different thread for each different tutorial subject (one for MH, one for AS, etc)? Although if there is no discussion or comment at all in the tutorial thread that may not be so necessary.
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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other tutorials

Post by sektor2111 »

Yeah, I would be interested to discuss around MH tutorials.
I've read a bit even sample about looking at Tarmation2 map. EXCUSE ME :shock: !?
I've been looking for that and I found a bunch of Fix1, Fix2,... Fix5 . That's a sample ? You lost me here...
I took _fix5 version looking over it. If I'm not mistaking I think I closed Editor in 20 seconds or less only when I could see some triggers and some zero linked PathNodes and that Skaarj behind door which ON-LINE in a default server goes retarded attacking an innocent door. Did I miss something ? Mapping it's all about coloring walls and loading a crap-ton of brushes and bullshiting settings ? I'm interested about a sample clean not an over fixed one and a NOT FIXED piece of crap :thudown: . Yeah... interesting map no wonder... :sleep:. I'm afraid that if I'll start writing patching files for that I'll get busy until Dec 24 2018. But I got a better idea, I will wait the fix524 maybe someday will come out. Until that moment I think I'll go berserk mode Editing a replacement and then if some *original will appear in a random moment of life I'll use that one.

Tutorial notes for still lost mappers:
- A CreatureFactory reacts like a trigger without needing a permanent trigger which might hit counter delivering a FAKE count - by setting it up properly will do the same thing like is triggered with a trigger;
- Monster behind a door was NEVER a SURPRISE. Maybe in 2017-'18 will be indeed a less expected thing, in my server works properly...
- PathNodes at a big distance from ground are not linked that much - this is a dumb guessing not mapping;
- Mover16 - probably not the single like that it's... impressive - TRASH it's the right term here. This crap has StopWhenEncroach then TriggerToggle and a never bTriggerOnceOnly for such case but thanks to the Lord God we can use GRAB command including for doors before that Last door so we can end this map very "early", that simple and useless. Luckily probably End is not reachable else Bot would ruin fun here in a few seconds...
At least area around this start spot
[attachment=0]Zat_Map_Wheew.PNG[/attachment]

makes me to think at starting some vomit smilies spree as did MMU in a topic before...
Probably if I'm asking the same question: What was fixed here and who did those "fixes" ? people will get collectively tired of this question so I won't ask nothing this time. I think I'll move it away for the moment because I don't intend to ruin my Christmas which is closer.
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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other tutorials

Post by Terraniux »

Every map has its errors Nels, but the first time I played that map I was just simply overwhelmed. I could say nothing but wow. Didn't look it up in the editor often, just to check once where to go. And how a certain thing was build.
But this is a personal thing. I the reason I highlighted the map was that more people may have the same experience online like I did.

The godlike map may be a big inspiration source for them. Not the faults of it. But thanks Nels, for you input. :thuup: Much appreciated.
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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other Tutorials.

Post by OjitroC »

Back on the subject of interest and variety in MH maps.

It's interesting how people's perceptions vary
Terraniux wrote:5 Any monsters that are, in your opinion, underused in MH maps and could help to add interest to a map?
Oh yes there is. Actually 2. The weakest of both kinds. Nali and the Pupae.:
JackGriffin wrote:You are right that pupae are just overlooked and they make a good opponent in the right environments.
I seem to meet pupae in every map I play (well, almost every map). I think they're overused and can be used in a cliched way - best example here is the 'go to a room and kill x monsters and then go to another room and kill x monsters' type of map. What do these normally start off with? Pupae!!

Have a look at MH-Cryptrunners - a nicely thought out and detailed map, a sophisticated variant of the 'GTARAKXMATGTARAKXM' type of MH map as it is well textured and has some surprises, hence 'sophisticated'. From the spawnroom and into the first room what does the player meet? Pupae!! Nicely textured and detailed room with a medieval feel, no cover except for four slim pillars, and lots of pupae (I got 40 but don't know if there would be more as I limit what the factories produce). Having killed all those, I thought "I wonder what's in the next room? Bet it's flies" - into the next room and sure enough it is Flies! Same design and layout of room as before. After that devilfish, at which point I decided to play another map.

I'm not arguing against that type of map (I'm sure some people like them) but for avoiding cliches, adding variety and doing something interesting.

Quick example of an interesting and challenging 'GTARAKXMATGTARAKXM' type of MH map - sektor2111's MH-SK_Goz - another sophisticated map in which the player teleports to a series of spaces and rooms where there are varieties of weapon-carrying Skaarj. Barriers of boxes, crates, etc are placed at the entrance to most of the spaces/rooms to give the player cover from the Skaarj within and the player has to use tactics, skill, accuracy and quick movement to successfully overcome them (well set-up skaarj weapon-holders are pretty fearsome opponents). So this map places a premium on these qualities rather than on brute force and herein lies its sophistication.

Again I'm not advocating exact copying of this approach but more thought on how to make a map fun, challenging and a test of skill rather than brute force.
Last edited by OjitroC on Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other tutorials

Post by sektor2111 »

Man, pupaes are the very last problem of mine.
I've just recall an old discussion at DU about that Tarmation2 pointed. An admin has simply said at everyone to quit fixing that mess. I see that if you are removing cheating exist a zone with a "FAN sucking" you and damage there is 1000/second :shock: - and you have to pass through that for doing mission. It's more entertaining at each check. Given the brush building type each of these map versions has BSP problems killing players and even looking at them buried into some "floor". The question is how to unlock those doors since damage taken on the way is more than any MH mod is supporting for player. Do we needed to play now having a default 2000 health ? :loool: USELESS, you can die in a BSP's map featured "walls". The crap is more convincing since not even on a 1 UU grid is not aligned, and semisolids intersecting things and the void are not what I call "mapping". And Map starts with "Generals" and flies which you can avoid by simply stepping away and avoid touching the trigger in cause. Another question stay: If we know what deintersecting is and how that thing should be used.

My Sk_Godz btw, that's not a demo about doing fancy Levels. It was a sort of exercise of mine about bringing some creatures and using 0 (zero) solid brushes - READ WELL HERE - maps doesn't have any SOLID brush, it's entirely done from SemiSolids, Subtracts and Non-Solid types. Also I charged MyLevel at extremes in order to see how goes that load. That's about Sk_Godz rather than ambience. Okay, okay, there are multiple skybox zones (another exercise which I did there - and a successful one). I gotta admit I was almost to drop everything when some "nice" prefab imported simply has ruined everything... Thank you, dudes, for your shared trash - I'm not gonna recommend nothing from there. We need COPLANAR surfaces in our maps, btw.

By racing a bit through those tutorials which have been updated last time, I think I'm just wasting my time reading plonks: "Use 2D Shape Editor for cylinders because cylinder builder will not align cylinder at grid". Really ? :loool:
May I ask something ? Who stops you to use Console (or smarty buttons) in order to align that cylinder to an 8 UU grid with no issues ? Jesus, dudes... Are you OK ? Did you even know that Console from Editor is useful in mapping process ? Wait, I lie, it's not just useful, it's really VERY useful.

Like self notes: Due to MH mapping needs (a bit more loaded Levels than in a common DM) geometry has to get a build following RULES unless you want to see the result as a nonsense. This means no brush mixing but deintersected properly and ALIGNED, also pivot should be at grid too, laziness is not a response, and make some damn zones in your map, won't hurt, it's guaranteed.
Last edited by sektor2111 on Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other Tutorials.

Post by Terraniux »

I think they're overused and can be used in a cliched way - best example here is the 'go to a room and kill x monsters and then go to another room and kill x monsters' type of map. What do these normally start off with? Pupae!!
Well isn't that the only purpose so far for pupaes? A room full of pupues bring MORE action than one single pupue a with a lot of health. A swarm is better in case of the pupae.

An example of this my : MH - AdventureNight map, brought me big success, due the pupae swarm with lights out action. Such are more maps. :thuup:

I've never heard of a strong pupae, only just little cuddlers, with sharp teeth. Like kittens.
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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other Tutorials.

Post by OjitroC »

Terraniux wrote: Well isn't that the only purpose so far for pupaes? A room full of pupues bring MORE action than one single pupue a with a lot of health. A swarm is better in case of the pupae.
May be, may be. The point I'm making is not about pupae per se (well, not wholly) but about whether you want to consider giving some advice to would-be MH mappers on how to create some interest beyond the well used and stereotyped approaches to map design and the use of monsters.

I play a lot with MonsterSpawn - why? Because of its UNPREDICTABILITY and VARIETY - I don't know what I'm going to get or where I am going to get it. I'm just suggesting that there is possibly a need for more of that in MH maps and that, perhaps, it's something you want to talk about in your tutorials.
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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other tutorials

Post by Red_Fist »

No Pupaes are to naw at your ankles while you fight flying monsters not realizing you are being chomped to death on the ground, and for surprise attacks inside vents, or for a hoard to rush you. And an indication you are at the beginning of a map to let you know there is bigger monsters to come later.

If anyone wants to do some fixing, make it so they don't stare at you up ramps or steps :!:
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Re: Terra's MonsterHunt and other tutorials

Post by OjitroC »

Red_Fist wrote:No Pupaes are to naw at your ankles while you fight flying monsters not realizing you are being chomped to death on the ground, and for surprise attacks inside vents, or for a hoard to rush you. And an indication you are at the beginning of a map to let you know there is bigger monsters to come later.
Yes indeed there are other uses for them but don't you think their use at the start of map is now rather cliched?

Have anyone done what MonsterSpawn does in a MH map (spawning monsters at random in a room, for example)? Is it possible?
Red_Fist wrote:If anyone wants to do some fixing, make it so they don't stare at you up ramps or steps :!:
See the earlier post by JackGriffin (viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12642#p103974) who has updated and 'fixed' them.
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