CTF-Panamax [FINAL]

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sektor2111
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Re: WIP: CTF-Panamax

Post by sektor2111 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:38 pm

@Barbie
That's more like a "PickLocalInventory" call rather than a FindPathToward thing, here is about traveling between flags.

Okay, so... which means in those points you need combos or forced links using XC power. You can PM me a small stair zone and I'll throw it back to you with what I recommend and you can do testing - don't forget that Bot in CTF might translocate, DM "Impactjumping" and such. If XC did not link them, definitely Original editor's devs won't do that - it's brute-force time. Put paths in map with Editor and then take a look with XC, probably it will show those missing links too. By using XC in Editor you can still use Original dev path with command "paths define" - that's Editor not XC. XC will have "Image" about this task, solution means... two solutions...

Edit: A confirmation (I already deducted that but now I have image)
This is BAD connection in one-way not navigable from another zone of map. See arrow, it's only one:
[attachment=1]Wrong_ One_way.PNG[/attachment]
Put a RememberSpot near that shield and use ShowPath. If you have a route from 700 UU away, I'll eat my computer at breakfast. The only thing here is Bot's desire for nearby items not a navigation directive.
And then my version:
[attachment=0]Another_ Two_Way.PNG[/attachment]
Can you see difference ? And then here is something... done with your help, btw.
Your sample:

Code: Select all

Specs: +++++
oooooooooooooooo: oooooooooooooooo
Specs: PlayerStart0 - UpstreamPaths[0]=0 Start=InventorySpot10 End=PlayerStart0 RFlags=Jump Walk =9 Dist=472
Connected: InventorySpot10 to PlayerStart0.
NoReachFrom: PlayerStart0 to point 0 which means InventorySpot10
Specs: +++++
Specs: There isn't any connection starting from PlayerStart0.
oooooooooooooooo: oooooooooooooooo
Specs: InventorySpot10 - Paths[0]=0 Start=InventorySpot10 End=PlayerStart0 RFlags=Jump Walk =9 Dist=472
Connected: InventorySpot10 to PlayerStart0.
Specs: +++++
Specs: No NavigationPoint heads to InventorySpot10. If a route passes through, if won't be usable.
Specs: ReachSpecs Flags summary:
Flg: R_WALK = 1
Flg: R_FLY = 2
Flg: R_SWIM = 4
Flg: R_JUMP = 8
Flg: R_DOOR = 16
Flg: R_SPECIAL = 32
Flg: R_PLAYERONLY = 64
And the second translated into words:

Code: Select all

Specs: +++++
oooooooooooooooo: oooooooooooooooo
Specs: PlayerStart0 - UpstreamPaths[0]=1 Start=InventorySpot10 End=PlayerStart0 RFlags=Jump Walk =9 Dist=472
Connected: InventorySpot10 to PlayerStart0.
oooooooooooooooo: oooooooooooooooo
Specs: PlayerStart0 - Paths[0]=0 Start=PlayerStart0 End=InventorySpot10 RFlags=Special =32 Dist=500
Connected: PlayerStart0 to InventorySpot10.
NoReachFrom: PlayerStart0 to point 0 which means InventorySpot10
Specs: +++++
oooooooooooooooo: oooooooooooooooo
Specs: InventorySpot10 - UpstreamPaths[0]=0 Start=PlayerStart0 End=InventorySpot10 RFlags=Special =32 Dist=500
Connected: PlayerStart0 to InventorySpot10.
oooooooooooooooo: oooooooooooooooo
Specs: InventorySpot10 - Paths[0]=1 Start=InventorySpot10 End=PlayerStart0 RFlags=Jump Walk =9 Dist=472
Connected: InventorySpot10 to PlayerStart0.
Specs: +++++
Specs: ReachSpecs Flags summary:
Flg: R_WALK = 1
Flg: R_FLY = 2
Flg: R_SWIM = 4
Flg: R_JUMP = 8
Flg: R_DOOR = 16
Flg: R_SPECIAL = 32
Flg: R_PLAYERONLY = 64
Simple as a pie.

For first image Credits goes at Epic and...
Gorgeous Credits goes at Higor for second image.

EDIT2: Query thing
@fudgonaut - feel free to upload here as samples for curious mappers those two "mini-maps" which I sent you if you want.
First was Using stock combos Nav.Points but using XC builder for all links.
Second was using PathNodes but declaring forced links for XC builder where default strategy does rejections even if area is navigable.
Attachments
Another_ Two_Way.PNG
Wrong_ One_way.PNG

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fudgonaut
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AlternativePaths and sectionWeights

Post by fudgonaut » Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:33 am

I'm looking at my map after many months. The pathing is bad and monotonous. I've tried using AlternativePaths to vary the bot pathing, with only limited success.

When assigning sectionWeight values to AlternativePaths, is there a specific range of values allowed? 0.0 through 1.0? 1 through 100? No limit?
What are the recommended increment for boosting a path's weight? 0.1? 1.0? 10? I know that it depends on the specific map, but does anyone have a rule of thumb that works for them?
Are there any other strategies, behaviors, or other or pieces of knowledge that could be shared to better understand how to get the most out of AlternativePaths?

Thanks in advance.

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sektor2111
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Re: WIP: CTF-Panamax

Post by sektor2111 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:27 pm

CTF has an internal randomizer for AlternatePaths sorting - that's only in CTF, I cloned that in MapGarbage builder to quickly testing map directly in Editor. However, some values have less chances to get sorted - I saw maps having even bigger values - 1000 or more, this is insane because I did not see such things at EPIC, in maps like CTF-EternalCave which for me is fine somehow. In a moment I wrote a PathToggler (Higor has one too) that can replace a common PathNode if has only 2 (4 real) connections. This toggler reacts triggered, more exactly I used a "stochastictrigger" for being more unpredictable even for myself. I was often interested about such togglers because after a few Sessions every single player can figure what is doing Bot and where is moving.
For such deviations I wrote even run-time togglers attached to a normal Pathnode - target was MH-BoomBoomBridge_BE map or such in order to gain more attack routes instead of the shortest one. Actor is scanning closer a nearby Node and locks/unlocks it by toggling extracost, yes, default pathnode is supporting this very well it won't need special data.
What is still doable toward this blocking or conditional blocking - writing some MyLevel (I did this in 2014):
- taking in account health: if seeker has a poor health block path letting him to follow VIALS routes;
- taking in account a low rated weapon: if seeker has an enforcer block path letting him to follow a Flak route;
- taking in account some area (news in a MH map) - if a projectile is fired in area, pawn will get back to another point for avoiding projectile - BomberTentacle here - 70% works because it's hard to figure navigation timings but it's better than nothing;
- taking in account a bridge - if bridge is moved lock routes, if bridge is lowered back allow navigation - here there are some stunts for producing paths over a bridge but it's doable...;
- Other factors required for certain conditions...
What I don't know well yet is flying deal. When I'm saying don't know well it's because some navigation data are not what I need or I have to write some new tools for a Warlord which has two physics and then when is walking won't find you through air until something makes him to change movement physics - I'm not talking horse-sh!t because I tested such a scenario, but stupid gasbags especially and mantas were nice... Human can see such routes if is... cheating with "fly" and other console command... that's why movement Physics is another factor to take in account for extra stunts.

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Re: WIP: CTF-Panamax

Post by fudgonaut » Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:00 am

Not sure if I'm going to get a chance to finish this. Certainly not in time for the map contest bonus pack. But here is the alpha version, about 31mb:

EDIT: Link removed

Hopefully that link will work, and hopefully I've remembered to include all the necessary files!

Known issues:
  • Needs pathing work. So much work.
  • Needs more/better pickup placement
  • Lens flares aren't working
Still, I'm pretty pleased with some of the results, like the water and skybox. And 99% orginal textures.

Constructive feedback welcome
Last edited by fudgonaut on Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:50 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: WIP: CTF-Panamax

Post by OjitroC » Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:54 am

fudgonaut wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:00 am
Hopefully that link will work, and hopefully I've remembered to include all the necessary files!
Sorry, I can't get that link to work even though I allow all the scripts to run - I just end up with a blank page.

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Re: WIP: CTF-Panamax

Post by fudgonaut » Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:45 am

OjitroC wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:54 am
Sorry, I can't get that link to work even though I allow all the scripts to run - I just end up with a blank page.
:oops: Updated the link - should work now

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Re: WIP: CTF-Panamax

Post by OjitroC » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:31 am

fudgonaut wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:45 am
:oops: Updated the link - should work now
Yes, the link works fine now - thanks :tu:

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Re: WIP: CTF-Panamax

Post by fudgonaut » Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:54 pm

OjitroC wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:31 am
Yes, the link works fine now - thanks :tu:
Any Thoughts?

I've made some tweaks to the map and also added the download link to the first post in this thread.

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Re: WIP: CTF-Panamax

Post by OjitroC » Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:53 pm

fudgonaut wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:54 pm
Any Thoughts?
I like it and found it enjoyable to play - it's pretty unusual in that there have been a few maps of ships before but, AFAIK, none of container ships. It certainly captures the overall look and feel of that kind of vessel.

I must admit I seldom play CTF but I have used MonsterSpawn in it quite a few times and its size and complexity makes for a fun monster hunt. I suspect it may take a while to get used to the layout for CTF - perhaps there needs to be more indication of where one is in relation to the 'bases' and more indication of the routes to the flags?

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Re: WIP: CTF-Panamax

Post by fudgonaut » Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:29 pm

OjitroC wrote: I like it and found it enjoyable to play - it's pretty unusual in that there have been a few maps of ships before but, AFAIK, none of container ships. It certainly captures the overall look and feel of that kind of vessel.
Thanks! I conducted a pretty large search for ship-themed CTF maps, and I was surprised no one had done a container ship in all these years.

OjitroC wrote: I suspect it may take a while to get used to the layout for CTF - perhaps there needs to be more indication of where one is in relation to the 'bases' and more indication of the routes to the flags?
Good point. I will contemplate a solution - my thinking is additional signage (Cargo Hold A, Cargo Hold B, Upper Deck, Bridge, etc).

Thank you for the feeback!

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Re: WIP: CTF-Panamax

Post by OjitroC » Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:04 pm

fudgonaut wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:29 pm
I will contemplate a solution - my thinking is additional signage (Cargo Hold A, Cargo Hold B, Upper Deck, Bridge, etc).
Yes, that's a good idea as it won't look out of place and so won't have a negative impact on the overall 'ambiance'.

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Re: WIP: CTF-Panamax

Post by sektor2111 » Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:25 pm

I checked this. Meh,... impressive work, I like the textures and layout.
But you need to take in account that Editor is not the best friend with Bots here. Bases are overcrowded so I went to a simplification VIA XC_EditorAdds (where I found other cute features, :tu: Higor). Also I adjusted a bit some parameters for my MBots because... ON-Line "Hitwall" got called often and... I'll figure that another time... little glitches I saw at those stairs but not a critical situation (MBot has another deal at "hitwall" things).
Even if AlternatePaths are 12 vs 14 for me this is not a big deal (I could find the lost one for being 13 vs 13), and then I was playing a few games. For me this map is okay as it is. Figuring bases in my gaming ground it's not a problem, I developed a FlagTracker mutator-tool guiding me where to move - now I have full support even in totally unknown maps, and switching bases is completing the challenge at once with AlternatePaths and the rest of teaming stuff. More nasty is playing against Tamerlane and Loque in the same team...
Except these results delivered by Editor I cannot complain about anything, this is a great map, more such maps are fun to play.
I'll show you below what is about:
Initial stage:
1_st.PNG
And simplified:
2_nd.PNG
3560 ReachSpecs went to 1857 ReachSpecs.

In end for an ALPHA type release this is more than good.
Edit: To not forget, I'm not sure if anyone can pickup Redeemer ON-Line in the way how it's rotating.

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Re: WIP: CTF-Panamax

Post by fudgonaut » Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:13 pm

sektor2111 wrote: Even if AlternatePaths are 12 vs 14
That should be fixed (it should be 13 and 13 now).
sektor2111 wrote: I'm not sure if anyone can pickup Redeemer ON-Line in the way how it's rotating.
I't didn't occur to me that there may be a problem online with AttachActor.u
At this point I don't think I'm going to do anything about it
sektor2111 wrote: Bases are overcrowded so I went to a simplification VIA XC_EditorAdds
I used both the "Path Rebuilder [XC]" and the "Map Garbage" buttons to clean up the map. I'm not sure how to optimize further -- honestly I don't know if I'll ever understand how to use the XC features properly. No offense to anyone and their hard work, the XC stuff is simply too byzantine for me.

sektor2111 wrote: I checked this. Meh,... impressive work, I like the textures and layout.
Thank you for the kind words - this map would have never been finished without your help!

I've updated the map to CTF-Panamax BETA1. This version includes the AlternatePath fix, and adds placards across the map to (hopefully) help players understand the layout a little better.

Some other things to check out:
  • There are several hidden pickups. Some are harder to find than others.
  • I used two layers of animated textures to create what is, IMHO, some of the best looking ocean water of any UT99 map
  • I turned the skybox into a mover, to simulate the ship rocking on the open sea. I'm not sure if anyone has done this before
  • panamax.utx is 99% new stuff, hopefully other mappers will find use for these new textures!
  • The Redeemer is on a rotating platform over a pit of toxic fuel. It takes some translocator skill to reach, and leaves the player exposed in the process - I think it's a nice challenge. It's fun to watch a bot occasionally try (and fail). Per sektor2111's comment, I don't know if it will work online.
I hope more people will try this map and provide some constructive feedback. I just want to be sure there are no egregious problems before I call it complete.

This is my first map and it took me forever to finish. Honestly I don't know if I have it within me to make another one. The process was agonizing.

I have major respect for those people who have churned out multiple maps, and continue to put out work of amazing quality. Props to them, and the ongoing support of this community!

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Re: BETA: CTF-Panamax

Post by sektor2111 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:57 am

XC_EditorAdds from package XCGE v23 v24 if I well recall versions do a highly optimized paths network - using only builder not the cleaner, cleaner is a different thing. Builder has a cute property, you can define Pawn used as Scout for mapping paths - sometimes I'm using a SkaarjScout and then a Bot if paths are going nasty when monster is used. Also this builder has aerial support - perhaps future jet mods will have full support.
XC_PathsBuilder.PNG
In this map (Panamax) the only thing that needs to be in account for XC builder is some yellow jumpy paths. Those needs attention because sometimes are heading to death - I used MapGarbage for deleting those bad jumps.

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Re: BETA: CTF-Panamax

Post by fudgonaut » Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:40 pm

One thing I noticed when I tried the map on another (much newer) laptop was that the lighting was WAY too bright. A lot of the colored lighting was washed out and the edges of the map were painfully visible.

I'm attaching an alternate version (Beta v3) which reduces zone lighting to let the local lights set the mood better. The only thing that's changed is the .unr file:

CTF-Panamax_BETAv2.zip
(2.73 MiB) Downloaded 8 times

I was wondering if people could compare Beta1 and Beta2 on their own machines, and let me know which one looks better (or is is somewhere in between)?

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