DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by sektor2111 » Thu May 30, 2019 5:54 am

Iacobus wrote: That's the the only reason why I'm a little hesitant in going straight way for makeshift solutions but I'm aware that teleporters have always been an issue though and I'll also be using the swJumppads in CFT-Bollwerk and surely I'm grateful for that. Anyways, people should always go for what bring them joy, not trying to diss or tell anyone off, just sharing...
Others were talking about design so redundant posting is not needed - okay chains I think were under discussion already, aligning textures was also mentioned. About scripting ? There is not a need to script anything, they are scripted already, it's up on user if wants them. And once again Teleporters do not have major problems unless a "mutator" is "fixing" them and all Bots goes morons around them - sample: TeleporterFix types - those are not mutators for me and then I wrote one in my own way.
But it's a simple way: not talking about anything, getting a beta, solving issues, posting nothing, done. Because I really hate when Bot is moron in map ignoring how well are painted walls if I have no challenge, I'm not in a museum to look at walls in a DM, I play... DM, and I accept the challenge when high skilled bots are hunting me down - but they won't do that if map has screwed up spots.

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by The_Cowboy » Thu May 30, 2019 6:08 am

sektor2111 wrote: Others were talking about design so redundant posting is not needed - okay chains I think were under discussion already, aligning textures was also mentioned. About scripting ? There is not a need to script anything, they are scripted already, it's up on user if wants them. And once again Teleporters do not have major problems unless a "mutator" is "fixing" them and all Bots goes morons around them - sample: TeleporterFix types - those are not mutators for me and then I wrote one in my own way.
But it's a simple way: not talking about anything, getting a beta, solving issues, posting nothing, done. Because I really hate when Bot is moron in map ignoring how well are painted walls if I have no challenge, I'm not in a museum to look at walls in a DM, I play... DM, and I accept the challenge when high skilled bots are hunting me down - but they won't do that if map has screwed up spots.
I had to say, just, wow. I mean it is really an honor to not only know the existence of such players in the community but also see them at action. Are you the evolved version of Wises? :loool:

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by sektor2111 » Thu May 30, 2019 6:32 am

The_Cowboy wrote:Are you the evolved version of Wises?
Nope... Wises is many times better than me. Respect, Wise, btw...
Else, I'll switch back to PM type feed-back for not offering too much posting feed.

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by The_Cowboy » Thu May 30, 2019 6:46 am

Hehe, don't get me wrong, but if you really know that person, you'd also know the chunks of feedbacks generated by that poster over time. You posts are equivalent in quantity but are of little different level. Just my personal judgement!

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by papercoffee » Thu May 30, 2019 9:20 am

The_Cowboy wrote:Just my personal judgement!
Can you please stop teasing sektor, in every response to him?
You don't have to agree with any member that's not the purpose of a forum. But I say, tune your taunts a little bit down ...50% is ok. ;)
Counterarguments and rectifying their errors would be much appreciated.

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by The_Cowboy » Thu May 30, 2019 4:32 pm

How about 75%, :highfive:

Kidding, 50% it is (I never mess with admins).

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by Red_Fist » Thu May 30, 2019 5:02 pm

Red_Fist wrote:See you got the brown on brown being wood or not wood. To show 3d depth more, make those pillars stand out. In art usually darker means farther away.
Having said that which is probably more for scenic landscaping art. Inside with lighting, the wall will be bright in back of the pillars, so to get more depth have some dark areas under a walkway and bright backgrounds that will make the pillars darker.
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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by Iacobus » Thu May 30, 2019 8:37 pm

Red_Fist wrote:
Red_Fist wrote:See you got the brown on brown being wood or not wood. To show 3d depth more, make those pillars stand out. In art usually darker means farther away.
Having said that which is probably more for scenic landscaping art. Inside with lighting, the wall will be bright in back of the pillars, so to get more depth have some dark areas under a walkway and bright backgrounds that will make the pillars darker.
So I wrote that last night, plus a lenghty explanation of what 'level design' is to Sektor, but if he hasn't got that after years in a gaming forum I'm afraid nothing will help at this point, and then I decided to sleep on that before replying.

A lot of the brown is coming from the default settings of the light sources that I haven't tweaked yet. Ideally that's the colour pallete I'm going for:
Shot0104_1.jpg
I want the bricks to have a blue tint coming from the moonlight contrasting with the red light of the torches coming from the passway entrances and the dark and opaque wood for framing. I'll be using wood a lot for
detailing and I don't want it to look overly busy by giving away too much light. I also want it to look aged and corroded as the whole scenery and I don't know if I can achieve that with a brighter tone. A lot of the
contrast will come from the decorations aswell that I still haven't figured out. If you have any texture you want me to try on I can check and see how it looks. That area with all the wood beams is a bit cramped and ideally I should expand it a little more, but I like trying to work around what came out of creative flow before making alterations.


sektor2111 wrote:Others were talking about design so redundant posting is not needed - okay chains I think were under discussion already, aligning textures was also mentioned.
I'm not as concerned with talking about my own junk as I am with getting people excited about level design (has nothing to do with texturing) and to see how to improve rough ideas through beta iterarions.
If you really were concerned about pathing and "challenge" in this map you could've told me for instance how EMover 1 and 3 are not getting used by bots creating 2 safe zones for players due to my bias towards other areas with item placement, but it's not like gameplay is your main concern but what kinda junk I'm putting on my map and how it's hooked up. Other than that, I have fixed everything you pointed out and thanked you for that already. I really appreciate how you're basicaly the only one reliably helping people out here, but it would be better for the community, not for me, if you knew more about game design before messing with everyone's paths.

sektor2111 wrote:But it's a simple way: not talking about anything, getting a beta, solving issues, posting nothing, done. Because I really hate when Bot is moron in map ignoring how well are painted walls if I have no challenge, I'm not in a museum to look at walls in a DM, I play... DM, and I accept the challenge when high skilled bots are hunting me down - but they won't do that if map has screwed up spots.
The first beta release was to check and discuss layout, item placement, playerstart points, weapon location, basicaly everything Swanky listed. Pathing comes after all this gets figured out and done. It's nice getting a feedback on other things
right way and beforehand but I'm not gonna rush it to then have to redo it all over again afterwards. I've rigged the crucial and that's more than enough to get an inicial feel of the map.

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by Red_Fist » Thu May 30, 2019 9:14 pm

I heard a long time ago from some 3D guru talk from some famous guy that I can't recall, but the saying is, for 3D, "if it looks right it is right".

I take that as you could mess with the looks until you are 99 years old, LoL And those guys need to pump out games so they don't have time to tweak it forever. You just have to know when to stop, and there is always SOMETHING, then once you mess with it you wish you didn't. :mad2:

I always set the levelproperties zonelight to 1 or 2 and the levelproperties brightness to 1 or 2 being that I despise 100% black in any onscreen game, just hate it.
But if you set it to 1 it makes it so the area is lit enough to see the darkest corner. But if you only try increasing lights brightness or radius to try and get some area brighter it messes up the spot closer to the light. Then adding more lights messes up other aspects or looks fake.(shadows going the wrong way)

Try the combinations and see if it helps you understand the looks of the map, or leave 1 the setting(s) to work from there.
Last edited by Red_Fist on Thu May 30, 2019 10:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by Swanky » Thu May 30, 2019 9:31 pm

The higher contrast range will make it easier to identify other players, so that's a plus. If you like it, use it. :) I think the general layout is working. There are a lot of ways to tweak botsupport even if just to emulate a certain behavior (had to do so with AMC-Ars_Indus, and I'm sure there are more possibilities than what I've used there), but indepth support should only be added AFTER you're satisfied with the layout. I think I can give more indepth opinions after I've gotten more familiar with the layout itself, beyond feeling that it is good and knowing where to get which item on the fly. That said, this is going to be a lot easier once you've added in a few things to make each area stand apart from each other so it's easier not to get lost.

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by sektor2111 » Thu May 30, 2019 10:17 pm

@Iacobus
I think I owe you some explanations why I'm not hunting so much lightning polish. Imagine map added in a server managed by myself. If some player or two are saying that map has a dark place which is annoying or some spot has way too much light and these mean small tweaks, definitely I do not need to edit anything. I'll write private plugins for patching and... configurable - configurable light radius, color, brightness, etc. And then it's a matter of tastes in how will be map in run-time compared with original running elsewhere - even I have dynamic coronas which I'm already using for torch-flames. And then we are reaching at what Red_Fist said: you don't need to waste 3 decades tweaking map, because if a player is complaining or whatever clan, you'll see some changes without to edit anything and you'll figure what are thinking others about lightning stuff - ALWAYS someone will have something to say here you cannot do something to be 100% agreed.
For Bots the story is longer and... tutorials have on purpose explanations about why some supposed longer road it's in account instead of lifts - that's a layout problem, map's concept. Definitely a ramp having 900 UU will capture Bot's attention instead of lift because Lift combo has a minimal hard-coded distance of 1000 UU. Le to Lc = 500 and Lc to Exit Le = 500 => 500 + 500 = 1000. Shortest way is that 800-900 UU through ramp in order to gain desired item (or desired hunted enemy). There are nice things doable but for causing some extra links in run-time problem comes with requirement for new XC stuff, else lightning can be adjusted in ANY server if admin wants, that's why for me NOT Lightning is a major heavy to tweak issue. Even Lifts if are not loved by Players can be changed - I can make them to move in two steps causing them to have three key-frames instead of two and these can happen randomly or only in certain days of week, map can be... very dynamic. Problems which should be mapper's concern are:
- BSP bugs;
- HOMS;
- Badly Screwed actors;
- probably pathing (for plain servers).
Light issue ? Can be adjusted.
Mover issue ? Can be adjusted.
Empty wall ? Drop a decoration - not a problem then - or painting a graffiti if wall has a bright texture.
Mapper should take in account the part where mutator cannot do anything - that has to be executed well - geometry.
Excuse me if I was bothering you - it was not on purpose - for me this map is good as it is speaking about initial layout idea. Because I repeat:
If a server is called Lightning Server and admin is a bad ass coder he can light up ALL MAPS including those with darkness in different colors or whatever - even getting rid of fog if it's annoying. For the record, a WarpZone can be disabled ( read well - I found this accidentally ) and attached teleporters might take place - options are too many for mutators...

Keep up good work :gj: .

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by papercoffee » Thu May 30, 2019 11:43 pm

The wood is fine. Dark rotten wood is natural.
For me it's not the wood which creates too much visual noise ... it's the small bricks and the repetitive dark parts.

Different bricks/stone-squares for different purpose.
https://previews.123rf.com/images/pixph ... kirche.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 060615.jpg
https://cdn.pixabay.com/photo/2017/10/3 ... 60_720.jpg
https://www.advantour.com/img/armenia/tatev/tatev4.jpg

The stone can be also a little bit brighter ...washed by rain and bleached by the sun. Just an idea.

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by Iacobus » Fri May 31, 2019 10:18 am

Red_Fist wrote:I take that as you could mess with the looks until you are 99 years old, LoL And those guys need to pump out games so they don't have time to tweak it forever. You just have to know when to stop, and there is always SOMETHING, then once you mess with it you wish you didn't. :mad2:
One of the reasons for posting it right now was for you guys to tell my silly brain to stop doing things to it! last time I attempted to make a DM-1on1 I ended up with a TDM for 24 players half FNB of size lol
Red_Fist wrote:I always set the levelproperties zonelight to 1 or 2 and the levelproperties brightness to 1 or 2 being that I despise 100% black in any onscreen game, just hate it.
But if you set it to 1 it makes it so the area is lit enough to see the darkest corner. But if you only try increasing lights brightness or radius to try and get some area brighter it messes up the spot closer to the light. Then adding more lights messes up other aspects or looks fake.(shadows going the wrong way)
It was already at 1 and I had it bumped up even more with Zone lighting to give a bit of blue to the environment. I think it's the contrast and large dark spots making it look darker than it actually is. I just set it to 1.5 (2 was too bright) plus I had already added a lot more light sources to all areas. I can tweak it later after I redo the textures but at least for testing it won't be more an issue. :tu:
Swanky wrote:The higher contrast range will make it easier to identify other players, so that's a plus. If you like it, use it. :) I think the general layout is working. There are a lot of ways to tweak botsupport even if just to emulate a certain behavior (had to do so with AMC-Ars_Indus, and I'm sure there are more possibilities than what I've used there), but indepth support should only be added AFTER you're satisfied with the layout. I think I can give more indepth opinions after I've gotten more familiar with the layout itself, beyond feeling that it is good and knowing where to get which item on the fly. That said, this is going to be a lot easier once you've added in a few things to make each area stand apart from each other so it's easier not to get lost.
Ok, since it was brought up, what's your excuse for nothing having a tutorial in level design pinned on mapping? :mrgreen:

I was checking AMC-Ars_Indus earlier today to see how you managed to get bots to grab the UDamage :)
Regarding botpath, I need to tweak some nodes by the ledges and check other places I can make them leap down. set some defense points for TDM, I also need to spread ammo around some more to get them to cover more ground, maybe nudge some nodes around and look for junk ones. Other than that, I don't know what can be done vanilla to improve botsupport.
For players, a lot of the navigation issues were coming from the fact I wasn't diligent with my torch placements. They were calling attention away from the entrances, some of which was too dark to be noticed even, specially the lifts.
I set them so they hightlight the entrances now and the misleading ones were replaced with lanterns. I think some areas desperately need some lure to be part of the map cycle, but I don't know how much I can do before getting into
detailing and without a texture pack defined. The getting lost part is kinda by design until first runners get familiar with all the ins and outs, specially beneath and around the UDamage, but with the new lighting hopefully
it will be a lot easier to differentiate among the 3 main areas. I'll see what I still can do until tomorrow night and I'll be releasing a new beta. Looking foward to hear your thoughts!

sektor2111 wrote:Excuse me if I was bothering you - it was not on purpose - for me this map is good as it is speaking about initial layout idea.
I wasn't feeling bothered at all. If anything I want to break the stigma you have towards mappers and understand there's more to it than putting some brushes together so you can dicern those who want to do a
serious job and those who are in this just for fun. Not that I think there's something wrong with doing just for fun, it's just simply unfair to inherit the bad rep by association.
You didn't have to explain your side, I've downloaded enough maps to know how pathing is usually dealt, but hear mine: I could either leave this map in my laptop cooking for 6 months or so, until I had everything done my way to
only then get someone to play it other than myself, to then find that the layout has issues, that pathing could be improved, that it's too dark for most people, fix all of this, and then after all that maybe get 10 people
to play it once and throw in the bin because it doesn't fit they playstyle or mood and them throw a tantrum because nobody recognized my hard work, even though nobody asked for it and I didn't even bother to check, or...
I could release an early beta, see how people react to the layout and get some playtesting, be open for criticisms and suggestions, make some quick fixes and leave a playable version with a good bot support for
those who got interest in and only then take my time to do all the decorations and what nots. Which one you think works better? Anyways, I get your point and if I didn't know the importance of pathing I wouldn't leave it for later when I can take my time to do it better. Thanks for the support and don't worry about excuses, it's all cool.
papercoffee wrote:The wood is fine. Dark rotten wood is natural.
For me it's not the wood which creates too much visual noise ... it's the small bricks and the repetitive dark parts.

The stone can be also a little bit brighter ...washed by rain and bleached by the sun. Just an idea.
Nice! There are some nice patterns there that I can try and replicate.
The colour scheme was closer to those in early alpha.
Shot0105_1.jpg
The textures I have now are just colour shifted versions of these with a decal. It looks darker than it is because of the lack of lighting and they'd look too blurry at 2x. I was only still using this set because of the arches but I do intend to replace it. I need to look for a good texture of better quality to make a set of with some variations, also the floor looks very muddy and blurry and needs replacement too. I can make the top areas and the more exposed ones bleached and washed out descenting into more darker tones as it gets to the bottom. Thanks for the suggestion!

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by Swanky » Fri May 31, 2019 8:58 pm

Ok, since it was brought up, what's your excuse for nothing having a tutorial in level design pinned on mapping? :mrgreen:
Mostly because at the time I was starting with unrealed, there were already very good tutorials. Quick search from google doesn't give any results, though. Anybody around still having those old davidm tutorials?
Well, in hindsight those were more technical and less philosophical. There are various approaches to designing a level, not a single golden path. ;)

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Re: DM-BrokenFaith (WIP)

Post by Iacobus » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:10 am

Swanky wrote:Mostly because at the time I was starting with unrealed, there were already very good tutorials. Quick search from google doesn't give any results, though. Anybody around still having those old davidm tutorials?
Well, in hindsight those were more technical and less philosophical. There are various approaches to designing a level, not a single golden path. ;)
I ended up saying tutorial for lack of a better word, what I really meant to say was an overview on what there is to know on the subject. Of course I was just teasing, but I really would like to understand why this seems to always have been a staple around UEd users. The very fact that the best source you could think of is nowhere to be found or at least not easily available speaks volumes on the awareness the community as a whole has towards it and it's clearly reflected on the type of content the same produces compared to other games, many of which I had to source thoughout the years to find some good material.
Even brushing tutorials are hard to come by and very lacking when it comes to the limitarions of the engine and how to make a better use of it. Not trying to make much of it after the fact, just sharing some repressed thoughts that kept me away from UEd all these years, surely many others too.

Btw, that's the best result I could find on DavidM here in the forum:
Swanky wrote:Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:50 am - I remember the days about 15, 17 years back when I first started mapping. I had some experience with sandbox editors from Red Alert and StarCraft, but nothing as complex as Hammer or UEd. So I first started out with one of those basic how to make a room, light it in pink light and add some apples. Wasn't until my 3rd or 4th map that I abused my parents' 56k modem and uploaded it. Wasn't good, obviously (and also lost in time). It was only when I kept insisting on uploading 2 or so more maps that showed some promise when the user _unreal_ pointed me toward some of DavidM's tutorials (unfortunatly - also lost in time) on level design philosophy and how to make an atmospheric scene using the editor. Fast forward a few more maps I tried getting into the ImperialOne Mappack. Didn't work out but I learned a ton of stuff with the map DM-Ajanta while also getting a lot of helpful feedback along the way.
The thing is - it's always a bit of both. Challenge yourself and get challenged by others. Sometimes a "this looks shit" is more worth than "this looks good" because it sometimes manages to stimulate more. But for starters a few
pointers in the right direction are always nice. Maybe not so much technical bits like Hourences' tutorials still available but more like tutorials on design philosophy and how to work with those in a given environment. Not that
I had the time to do so, unfortunatly. Just don't take it serious and let yourself be pushed out of what you like to do. Keep doing it until someone hands you that little golden key - just bring a lot of patience. As has been said,
learning the ropes and finding your own style can take years.

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