BSP holes revealed. TIP

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Red_Fist
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BSP holes revealed. TIP

Post by Red_Fist » Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:39 pm

:!:

So I am messing with a large terrain style brush, and it has the black void on some polys.

So, I move a vertex a tiny bit and rebuild, the hole is gone.

What I found out is. after all these years, you need to realign the textures and BOOM, the same BSP hole is back.

If you are trying to fix a map and think you fixed it, select the texture and realign it and you will see if you fixed it or not.

A side note that doesn't matter, but each time after I edit a vertex I reset the pivot and permanently transform the brush just to make sure the pivot isn't changing something on the brush each time I build it. This still didn't effect the BSP hole after aligning the texture. So I don't think you need to do that but to keep it tidy and test worthy I did that.
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Re: BSP holes revealed. TIP

Post by Barbie » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:52 pm

Red_Fist wrote:What I found out is. after all these years, you need to realign the textures and BOOM, the same BSP hole is back.
I'd like to see a proof of this, because in theory BSP does not depend on surface textures.

For example provide a map where exactly this can reproduced: it should be without BSP errors (before and after rebuilding) and after realign some textures it has BSP errors.
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Re: BSP holes revealed. TIP

Post by Red_Fist » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:35 pm

I been doing this for 2 days now that I discovered why BSP holes keep coming back. I am hiding everything but the one large brush. That map I sent you has the brush, and am trying to fix it after tons of other things but the damn thing won't SAVE !!!

I have the whole map polys at 27000 or less, and the total nodes at 47000, I am not sure how high and bad those numbers are but something is making it not save once I un-hide the outside large brush.
I got rid of tons of zones caused by those stupid semisolids, and redone the area from well above 63 zones down to 11, but the map still would not save with all the brushes un-hidden. The total map now has 47 zones

So I figure I will try to fix that brush. and it's not super high polys or nodes for that brush either, it has bad spots in it, I managed to get rid of two spots, and even after I aligned the texture.
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editor Dave
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Re: BSP holes revealed. TIP

Post by editor Dave » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:12 pm

The only thing I can think of is that it is somehow connected to merged faces, which is still strange since you normally have to select it every time you want to do it. But did you ever try to seperate the textures of the brush after the realignment?
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Re: BSP holes revealed. TIP

Post by Swanky » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:30 pm

Are there any supercuts in the bsp? That's a likely cause. In that case you can try to make the supercut go away by shifting one vertex in that cut. You'd have to realign the terrain, but chances are you get rid of the bsp hole. Or you could try and add a single, solid brush somewhere along the cut. The bsp will have to be recalibrated and that might get you rid of the bsp hole as well. Had to do that with TMC-Narean; you can see there's a small 32³ brush at the lower level.

Other than that, a few screenshots or a file would be nice to have a look at for further advice.

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Re: BSP holes revealed. TIP

Post by Red_Fist » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:42 am

editor Dave wrote:The only thing I can think of is that it is somehow connected to merged faces, which is still strange since you normally have to select it every time you want to do it. But did you ever try to seperate the textures of the brush after the realignment?
Yes, I did. separate.

But with vast thirst to save the map and or saving as t3d a million times., I think I was working on a merged brush.

THIS file I believe needs to be separated, I always separate before doing the fancy stuff.

So I did that and my first BSP error came back not as bad as it was, but all of that STILL has NOTHING to do what I am saying unrealEd does it and you can check for BSP errors.
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t3d1234.zip
Has some bad spots.
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Re: BSP holes revealed. TIP

Post by sektor2111 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:57 am

Last time was added a map here by a dude... He has a problem with a polygon (non-colliding wall) which is demonstrating exactly what I said times before. Even if polygon is aligned to a grid, in that angle it's impossible to have a coplanar surface because of some math logic. A non-coplanar surface will return the mostly a non-colliding wall which is explained in source-codes by EPIC. I worked at various maps - mainly those fixX types and I had a bad time with them until I edited rebel brush, else it does a BSP cut triggering more errors later, adding whatever null space for deviating a BSP cut, etc. I'm not sure if texture from a surface has too much to do with the build if that surface is BAD - non-coplanar. MH-Tarmation2 has such a surface nearby ShockRifle which was there since version fix1 and the same with floor containing brutes half buried into ground - a stupidity. By looking at it as text, definitely that brush had errors and then... creating a crapped room was not that unexpected disregarding textures which... I realigned it after getting that wall solid behind editing brush.

Note: Fixing such a thing might be time consuming and a patience which I don't really have - so to speak such a task it's not for me...

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Re: BSP holes revealed. TIP

Post by Red_Fist » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:48 am

I think this is the math logic idea,some vertex are ,,just out there,,
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Re: BSP holes revealed. TIP

Post by Krull0r » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:56 am

I loaded the brush in Blender and cleaned it up. It took about one hour to remove all strange generated edges and vertices.

The brush should be imported over Brush / Import instead of importing the level
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Re: BSP holes revealed. TIP

Post by Hellkeeper » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:01 pm

Red_Fist wrote:Image
That was the singlemost horrible BSP thing I've seen in 20 years of mapping, I don't know how you can sleep at night. This thing will haunt my nightmares. :shock:
You must construct additional pylons.

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Re: BSP holes revealed. TIP

Post by Red_Fist » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:42 pm

LoL, well I am trying to fix it, So I will try the fixed one, hope it works, I did manage to fix some, pure luck with vertex nudging.

Thanks man !!
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Re: BSP holes revealed. TIP

Post by Krull0r » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:31 pm

With my edit of the brush you can move every vertices like you want. There should be no issues as long the edges do not cross :)

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Re: BSP holes revealed. TIP

Post by XaNKoNII » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:48 pm

Krull0r wrote:I loaded the brush in Blender and cleaned it up. It took about one hour to remove all strange generated edges and vertices.

The brush should be imported over Brush / Import instead of importing the level
wow you can actually do that? Its funny cuse ive actually starting to learn blender recently, thats something i want to try then :D

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Re: BSP holes revealed. TIP

Post by Krull0r » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:10 pm

You really should give it a try it’s easy to edit and create new terrains with blender.

I also have to mention that I used 227 to convert this brush to a static mesh, exported it as .obj, edited it in blender, saved the repaired mesh as a new .obj, reimported it in to the 227 editor and converted the reimported static mesh to a brush. As you see you can export the brush and is it for UT as well :)

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Re: BSP holes revealed. TIP

Post by PrinceOfFunky » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:30 am

Realigning textures may fix BSP holes because texture alignments and sizes change the way the light affect them.
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