Fixing Unreal1 maps for ut99

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OjitroC
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Re: Fixing Unreal1 maps for ut99

Post by OjitroC » Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:36 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:50 pm
I'm curious about purpose of a map having BUGS and everything stripped making a fix almost impossible and why do I need to Respect such practices.
I get the impression from various readmes and from reading the website that J is/was more interested in creating or recreating locations or scenes from films (for example) and in making them as authentic as possible within the confines of the Unreal Engine than he is/was in producing fully playable maps (in the sense of what people expect in a 'normal' DeathMatch map). If you look at the Fringe series of maps, as an example, only one of those is playable as a DM - the accompanying documentation makes it clear that these (and other of his) maps are not intended to be (fully) playable but more something to enter and wander around. Hence the CWO and AeonFlux maps (for example) contain a wide range of references to the films, including bits of the soundtrack and dialogue that would be familar to those who had seen the films, plus character skins, posters, etc.

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong in that approach. Other people have also used the engine for an exercise in recreating architecture and RL spaces - so, for example, there's one map of a university in Portugal which looks like a faithfull reproduction of the campus and, whilst it can be played, there are limitations in the gameplay. All this does, of course, mean one has to adopt a somewhat different set of criteria when viewing and criticising the maps (in essence, one has to look at them differently because the purpose of the map is (in part, largely or wholly) different).

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Re: Fixing Unreal1 maps for ut99

Post by sektor2111 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:40 pm

Which means that an UNR file with prefix DM it's not always a DM map - warning @server-admins here.
And then... these are what I'm calling mapping "SPAM" - useless DM files for DM servers or useful for "no-play" servers/games... :what:

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Re: Fixing Unreal1 maps for ut99

Post by OjitroC » Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:46 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:40 pm
Which means that an UNR file with prefix DM it's not always a DM map - warning @server-admins here.
And then... these are what I'm calling mapping "SPAM" - useless DM files for DM servers or useful for "no-play" servers.
Basically - yes, that's true. It's something to be discovered by reading any readme there might be and by playing the map. It's not something that necessarily applies to all of J's maps but it is necessary to be aware that the emphasis in some of them will not be on playability.

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Re: Fixing Unreal1 maps for ut99

Post by FraGnBraG » Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:12 pm

<begin minor rant>
you guys have to keep in mind this guy "J" developed his maps for Unreal1, and sometimes these were for mods or used mods. The fact they mostly worked in ut99 is just the same thing the u1 product maps will work in ut99. I remember whenever i studied this "J" guys catalog (long long ago now) i ran all his unreal stuff in Unreal gold and after getting some extra crap they all worked, except a few which he warned might not work for some reason or another. iirc he had some ut99 stuff and that worked fine in ut99. Later I tried running a bunch of his u1 stuff in ut99 and some of it did not work. Some time they would crash depending on renderer, because he was fucking around with high res graphics etc.

IMO, it is neat that he did so much to make interesting maps, by developing all the themes. I loved aeonFlux and the moonBase one, but >>>> like angelheart (of whom J is a peer, btw) <<<<< most of the maps are quite crappy when it comes to gameplay - really. Not too hard to figure that out. Then again a lot of mappers were just being creative and did not care too damn much about players. It is not always about arena-shooter competition anyways, sometimes people just want to see something cool or different for a change. Great unreal/ut99 gameplay was obviously not the point of these maps - and that is absolutely OKAY, IMO. I think stuff like this is better left to history. Fun to look at or wonder around in to remember the good-old-days, but NOT ressurect - or try to FIX.

Make a god damn new map using the same theme if you want, with good gameplay, that works today. leave history alone. You are fixing something because you think it was made broken? Think about it. People were not usually releasing broken maps to the public. The stuff worked for years. If it doesn't work now, so be it.

This all started about that old shopping mall. I would think EveilGrins should be able to create new original map by now - it is not really all that hard. make an Evil Grins shopping mall! Then you don't have to ask anybody for permission. Re-use the textures if you must, just credit the source. Let J's shopping mall go back to sleep... <end minor rant>

Just a few thoughts
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Re: Fixing Unreal1 maps for ut99

Post by OjitroC » Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:08 pm

FraGnBraG wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:12 pm
IMO, it is neat that he did so much to make interesting maps, by developing all the themes. I loved aeonFlux and the moonBase one, but >>>> like angelheart (of whom J is a peer, btw) <<<<< most of the maps are quite crappy when it comes to gameplay - really. Not too hard to figure that out. Then again a lot of mappers were just being creative and did not care too damn much about players. It is not always about arena-shooter competition anyways, sometimes people just want to see something cool or different for a change. Great unreal/ut99 gameplay was obviously not the point of these maps - and that is absolutely OKAY, IMO. I think stuff like this is better left to history. Fun to look at or wonder around in to remember the good-old-days, but NOT ressurect - or try to FIX.
Couldn't agree more with all of that :tu:

I too love AeonFlux ("ready for the action now, danger boy?"), Amsterdam, Tokyo, FutureCity, Golf etc and have returned to them every now and again over the years - I admire the creativity and the care taken to create interesting, atmospheric and immersive maps (which extends to the creation of custom skins and weapons, like the GolfBall Gun for Golf, and the inventive use of sounds).

An example from his DM-RobotFactory which, I think, hints at what he was trying to do in his maps
The Unreal Robot Factory readme wrote:As an added bonus, I also included the actual “Unreal Engine”.
The Unreal Engine.jpg
The Unreal Engine.jpg (70.8 KiB) Viewed 211 times

The Unreal Engine

Originally designed and manufactured in 1989 by Tim Sweeney and Cliff Blezinski, this 8 cylinder 427 cubic inch displacement engine utilizes 3 Holley two barrel carburetors and runs on pure nitrous oxide, boasting an astounding 1200 horse power. It has been running for more than eleven years.

Hailed as a technological marvel at its first inception, the Unreal Engine was considered to be a state-of-the-art environmental simulator which provided a depth of realism and emersion that had never before been achieved..

Still in use nearly a decade after its creation, (almost unheard-of in the video gaming industry) the Unreal engine to this day continues to entertain, inspire and surprise even the most accomplished players and developers from around the world.

Dedicated to Tim and Cliff, for their awesomeness.

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Re: Fixing Unreal1 maps for ut99

Post by FraGnBraG » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:07 am

Ya know there were some other guys besides "J" that had interesting creative maps/catalogs - perhaps we should start a sort of mapping "history" thread for unique cool mappage ?

(and stop hijacking EG's thread :) srry EG

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Re: Fixing Unreal1 maps for ut99

Post by EvilGrins » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:10 am

FraGnBraG wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:07 am
(and stop hijacking EG's thread :) srry EG
That's okay, I don't mind.
http://unreal-games.livejournal.com/
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medor wrote:Replace Skaarj with EvilGrins :mrgreen:
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Re: Fixing Unreal1 maps for ut99

Post by EvilGrins » Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:31 am

Progress:
Image

He was apparently surprised anyone still played, but this seems to be a step in the right direction for editing... though not quite there yet.

I wrote him back, cross your fingers.
http://unreal-games.livejournal.com/
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medor wrote:Replace Skaarj with EvilGrins :mrgreen:
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Re: Fixing Unreal1 maps for ut99

Post by EvilGrins » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:44 am

I believe permission has been given, and we may have caused the guy to make some new maps due to the request.

At the bottom of here:
http://www.islandalien.com/unreal/shopping/index.htm

He made a post about the request I made to edit his Shopping Mall map.
Attachments
zzzzzzzzzzClip0001.png
http://unreal-games.livejournal.com/
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medor wrote:Replace Skaarj with EvilGrins :mrgreen:
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Re: Fixing Unreal1 maps for ut99

Post by OjitroC » Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:31 am

EvilGrins wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:44 am
I believe permission has been given, and we may have caused the guy to make some new maps due to the request.
Certainly interesting - pity some of the links just go to other maps so only about half of the new maps can be downloaded (including what could be an updated version of Shopping Mall and the CTF version of that update; as well as the music files for the maps, though the downloadable maps seem to work OK without those files).

Has he written back to you giving permission to edit his map?
Last edited by OjitroC on Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fixing Unreal1 maps for ut99

Post by sektor2111 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:34 am

And then... I'm having an edited (out of brush and geometry build) version with extra-paths which I considered required. IF permission for flying in the wild is granted (without crosswords puzzling) then I have to do other extra-checks - especially where things can be adjusted - navigation here, because I used the first version of PathLinker for UGold and... an older MapGarbage. Here navigation chain has to be well checked in order to have respected all Paths-Net rules. For geometry problems nothing is doable because map has Zero Brushes - okay, okay, movers are there - the only brushes...

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Re: Fixing Unreal1 maps for ut99

Post by EvilGrins » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:39 pm

OjitroC wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:31 am
Has he written back to you giving permission to edit his map?
Not specifically, but he seemed very flattered by the interest. Then again, I don't check that old email address that regularly...
http://unreal-games.livejournal.com/
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medor wrote:Replace Skaarj with EvilGrins :mrgreen:
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Re: Fixing Unreal1 maps for ut99

Post by OjitroC » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:54 pm

EvilGrins wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:39 pm
... he seemed very flattered by the interest ..
He was indeed and that prompted him to make some alterations to the DmShoppingmall map (which are described in that 'post') - he's made it into a CTF map but, like I say, the link on his site goes to a download of another map, as do the links for the next two maps.

If you're checking that old email, perhaps you could email him about those links? I did try leaving a message in his guestbook but it was rejected as spam!!

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Re: Fixing Unreal1 maps for ut99

Post by sektor2111 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:20 pm

Yep... it resulted too loaded with normal DevPath - 5100+ reachSpecs. Right now is covered with 1998 reachSpecs and... it's a private toy in the house.
When permissions are granted for flying in the wild and not encrypted sentences, it will be public at requests of course.
If exist a geometry problem... won't be an easy fix without brushes. I think this is one of maps without geometry issues - or I did not see major ones and it's suitable for a DM environment.

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