Any not listed limitation for Movers Polys/Nodes?

Tutorials and discussions about Mapping - Introduce your own ones!
Post Reply
Buggie
Adept
Posts: 290
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:32 am

Any not listed limitation for Movers Polys/Nodes?

Post by Buggie » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:47 pm

I try build huge map. No, HUUUGE map.

UnrealEd, say may "you nodes count bigger 65535 I am refuse save such BIG map". :pfff:
---------------------------
Message
---------------------------
This map has 72968 BSP nodes, but the maximum node count supported by the UT client is 65536. This map cannot be saved.
---------------------------
ОК
---------------------------
I reduce nodes count to 58000. :rock:
Now map saves.

But I have around 5000 Polygons in Movers of all kinds.
And in game some movers not rendered at all. Look like its not have polygons.
But it is block players and projectiles. But Monsters see you as you see them. And try attack.

Now main question:
Is count of Polys (maybe Nodes too) too used in hidden manner when saved map?
Because it is look like UnrealEd try save this 5000 polygons, which means ~10000 nodes, reach limit of 65535 total nodes, and all beyond limit simply not saved?
Last edited by Buggie on Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Barbie
Godlike
Posts: 1959
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:01 pm
Location: moved without proper hashing

Re: Any not listed limitation for Movers Polys/Nodes?

Post by Barbie » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:50 pm

Invisible movers are an unsolved problem, see for example thread Disappearing movers. I guess it has also to do with the surrounding BSP geometry.
"Multiple exclamation marks," he went on, shaking his head, "are a sure sign of a diseased mind." --Terry Pratchett

Buggie
Adept
Posts: 290
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:32 am

Re: Any not listed limitation for Movers Polys/Nodes?

Post by Buggie » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:28 pm

All geometry is fine. If I hide some parts of map, then all movers visible in game.

Map consists mainly of 5 parts. I test each part separately - no any problem with invisible movers.
I test some parts together for check travel from one part to another.

Now I try build all map, and all goes to hell.

If I reduce BSP cuts, which reduce count of nodes, then more movers visible.
If I push near limit of nodes (65000), then almost all mover invisible.

I see connection here. But I can be wrong.
----
In Editor.log appear

Code: Select all

Warning: Node side limit reached
2119 times.

Before that listed:

Code: Select all

Log: Polys: 29996 -> 29996
Log: Nodes: 58644 -> 58644
Log: Points: 94137 -> 94025
Log: Vectors: 9559 -> 9559
And in final stats in Build windows also listed 58644 as Node count.
So I think Movers also create Nodes, but not listed in final count.
And silently dropped on overflow.

Red_Fist
Godlike
Posts: 1806
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Any not listed limitation for Movers Polys/Nodes?

Post by Red_Fist » Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:41 am

If you are talking about flickering movers, it matters if they all appear in the same scene, or the same room. Not because you are hiding sections of the map, and the ploys and nodes are not related to movers, just brushes.

Movers are on their own, a dynamic hard coded brush, not BSP

But if you make a high poly mover, and shove it in a room with another high poly mover things will go bad quick, but if you just had cube movers you can go up to about 8 movers before things get weird. I am talking loop movers or rotating in the same room not doors.

But just because you hide BSP is nothing to do with the problem, it's just less load to the load you are placing on rendering it.

You could separate the map into sections, but make it appear as one, using warp zones, like through some small hallway.

FragNbrag would be the one to ask about the big map stuff.

But from what I read, your zone thread and this, if you want to make big maps you have to make all the BSP as clean and perfect fitting early on. So you will not have extra zones you can't find, or high amounts of polys or nodes.
Binary Space Partitioning

Buggie
Adept
Posts: 290
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:32 am

Re: Any not listed limitation for Movers Polys/Nodes?

Post by Buggie » Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:31 am

It is not about flickering movers.

Buggie
Adept
Posts: 290
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:32 am

Re: Any not listed limitation for Movers Polys/Nodes?

Post by Buggie » Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:58 am

I made test map.

65406 BSP Nodes in static brushes.

So 65536 - 65406 = 130 nodes left.

I add cylinder with 200 sides as mover at center of room and start map.

Most of polys of mover disappear.

So limit 65536 is counted of full count of Nodes.

Test map: https://www.sendspace.com/file/qfpgqt

Red_Fist
Godlike
Posts: 1806
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Any not listed limitation for Movers Polys/Nodes?

Post by Red_Fist » Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:42 pm

I got rid of the mover and brush. I made a subtract that surrounded the little cubes. Then I made all the little cubes add brushes, sure enough it got rid of all the zones, the map had one zone.

The node count went up,around 67,500-ish, but I wonder the effect of all those zones as opposed to using add brushes in a map to reduce zones.

Bottom line is you need to make a map with the least amount of nodes and polys right from placing the second brush in a map, to use geometry that don't create extra polys.
Binary Space Partitioning

Buggie
Adept
Posts: 290
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:32 am

Re: Any not listed limitation for Movers Polys/Nodes?

Post by Buggie » Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:30 pm

Node count is 67,500 because your add boxes in air make additional BSP cuts.

This things not connected with zone limit/count. UEd simple reuse zone index if overflow. So this does not matter.
Only some brushes connected as one zone.

I do not create map. I edit it. So I can not remake 7500+ brushes.

In any case question off possible limit and how measure it. Not how need make maps for avoid it.

Currently I have ~58500 Nodes and around 20-30 Movers with invisible nodes.

User avatar
Fraxter
Novice
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:44 pm
Location: Hvalsoe, Zealand, Denmark.

Re: Any not listed limitation for Movers Polys/Nodes?

Post by Fraxter » Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:49 pm

Dane and I tried to build a very large map and found it is impossible to build a huge map with full view from one side to the other. Maybe this is what happens to you and its not specificly related to the movers? Things at long distance did not come to view but if we zoomed in via tweaked long range sniper rifle things became visible once zooming in. Dividing the map into pieces by placing walls and other stuff blocking the full view distance helped a lot but also ruined the gameplay we wanted. We gave up on that idea well at least I did not know about Dane if he works on that still. If we made the map too big it failed too to high node counts and that was without even putting much detail into it. I think editor and engine just likes small maps from old days and not huge maps like in modern games.

Buggie
Adept
Posts: 290
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:32 am

Re: Any not listed limitation for Movers Polys/Nodes?

Post by Buggie » Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:52 pm

No this is not your case. Try load test map for understand what about topic.

Red_Fist
Godlike
Posts: 1806
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Any not listed limitation for Movers Polys/Nodes?

Post by Red_Fist » Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:27 am

Have you tried the build sliders for less cuts ? you might be able to squeeze stuff in.
Binary Space Partitioning

Buggie
Adept
Posts: 290
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:32 am

Re: Any not listed limitation for Movers Polys/Nodes?

Post by Buggie » Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:25 am

It is one possible way for do it.
I use 1 + 60 for reach 58500.
First option definitely must be 1.
Second may vary.
Only by tests you can find best position.
I test on one part of map and got good result for 50 60 80 and 85.
But for entire map 80 and 85 is not good.
Tricky stuff.

Red_Fist
Godlike
Posts: 1806
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Any not listed limitation for Movers Polys/Nodes?

Post by Red_Fist » Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:37 am

Too bad we can't see this mysterious large map. :noidea
Binary Space Partitioning

Post Reply