CTF-Noxion][

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ANUBITEK
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CTF-Noxion][

Post by ANUBITEK » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:10 pm

I did a retexturing of a vanilla map in UT99 a while back, also added a acid pool, modified the sky, and rebalanced the weapon/item/AI path node placements. Figured I should do a video and upload it.

Changes:

Code: Select all

> Item/Weapon Pickup Rebalance
- Rocket launchers are now closer to the flag.
- Pickups in majority of locations changed or moved.
-- Shield belt replaces keg of health.
-- No Rippers or Sniper Rifles, only Miniguns, Rocket Launchers, Flak Cannons, and Enforcers.
-- Body Armor added.

> Spawn Adjustments
- Spawn on either scaffold in flag room or next to flag room.

> Geometry Changes
- Wooden planks in center of map, above pit, have been reduced and their positions rotated.
- Skybox now has mountains and dirt floor.
- Boxes on spiral ramps modified to be symmetrical.

> Path Adjustments
- Bots should jump down from top plank to a lower one, doesn't always work.
- Defined bots pathing with increased node count.

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Re: CTF-Noxion][

Post by OjitroC » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:31 pm

Looks interesting - will play it soon.

In the meantime, sektor's MapGarbage reports
Spoiler
Show
CTFReport: --- Reporting AlternatePaths setup: ---
The Alternate Paths are a bit unbalanced:-
CTFReport: For Team 0 = 3 pieces.
CTFReport: For Team 1 = 5 pieces.
TFReport: AlternatePath0 has selectionweight = 1.000000 and Team = 1
CTFReport: AlternatePath1 has selectionweight = 1.000000 and Team = 1
CTFReport: AlternatePath2 has selectionweight = 1.000000 and Team = 0
CTFReport: AlternatePath3 has selectionweight = 1.000000 and Team = 0
CTFReport: AlternatePath4 has selectionweight = 1.000000 and Team = 0
CTFReport: AlternatePath5 has selectionweight = 1.000000 and Team = 1
CTFReport: AlternatePath6 has selectionweight = 1.000000 and Team = 1
CTFReport: AlternatePath7 has selectionweight = 1.000000 and Team = 1
Note the original had 3 Alternate Paths for each team.

Team 0 has one more Defense Point
DefenseChecks: Map has 11 DefensePoint Actors for team 0.
DefenseChecks: Map has 10 DefensePoint Actors for team 1
Note the original had 13 for team 0 and 11 for team 1

NumReachSpecs: After calculation we have 4360 ReachSpecs. (the original had 3282)
NumReachSpecs: Technically this map is overloaded and this is not that healthy for A.I.

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Re: CTF-Noxion][

Post by EvilGrins » Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:33 am

Bots repeatedly jumping back and forth over their own flag in their base, backs that up.
OjitroC wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:31 pm
In the meantime, sektor's MapGarbage reports
Could be from the original pathing on the map prior to this edit though.

The acid pit even kills spectators... ouch.

Bot from blue team gets red flag, runs it all the way back to blue base... then turns around and goes back to the red base before jumping down to lower bridge to take it back to the blue base from underground. Bit too much effort there.

Overall, looks good... kinda wanna put auto-cannons on it though.
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Re: CTF-Noxion][

Post by sektor2111 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:33 am

ANUBITEK wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:10 pm
... and rebalanced the weapon/item/AI path node placements.
Sure, let's turn an old wrong thing into a worst one. Happening when we do have helper builders and XC and UT469 and... everything for preventing any EPIC type blabbering in pathing chapter... .

Code: Select all

NoIncomingPath: PathNode96 is not having incoming connections.
NoIncomingPath: PathNode117 is not having incoming connections.
NoIncomingPath: PathNode332 is not having incoming connections.
NoIncomingPath: DefensePoint1 is not having incoming connections.
NoIncomingPath: DefensePoint2 is not having incoming connections.
NoIncomingPath: PathNode73 is not having incoming connections.
NoIncomingPath: PathNode124 is not having incoming connections.
NoIncomingPath: PathNode7 is not having incoming connections.
NoIncomingPath: PathNode78 is not having incoming connections.
NoIncomingPath: PathNode144 is not having incoming connections.
NoIncomingPath: PathNode145 is not having incoming connections.
BreakPointsFound: These 12 navigation points aren't that used as valid paths. They might be One-Way break points.
Here I'm grateful for idea, indeed this map can be improved and...it will be done.
Including some of these

Code: Select all

VoidCheck: Light465 looks placed into void.
VoidCheck: Light467 looks placed into void.
VoidCheck: Light534 looks placed into void.
VoidCheck: Light536 looks placed into void.
VoidCheck: pipebend15 looks placed into void.
VoidCheck: Light741 looks placed into void.

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Re: CTF-Noxion][

Post by ANUBITEK » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:21 am

EvilGrins wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:33 am
Bots repeatedly jumping back and forth over their own flag in their base, backs that up.
Oh interesting, I hadn't experienced this.
EvilGrins wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:33 am
The acid pit even kills spectators... ouch.
I noticed that when recording the video, I haven't touched this map in a while but it has to do with the Zone settings, I'll be sure to give this a look over tomorrow.
EvilGrins wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:33 am
Bot from blue team gets red flag, runs it all the way back to blue base... then turns around and goes back to the red base before jumping down to lower bridge to take it back to the blue base from underground. Bit too much effort there.
Another issue I hadn't experienced haha, my pathing is more amateurish than I thought.
EvilGrins wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:33 am
Overall, looks good... kinda wanna put auto-cannons on it though.
This was considered at one point, but I figured that if they were put anywhere in the middle then that would make a particular path undesirable to the point where players/bots may just take the alternate routes only. Put them anywhere near the flag and they become too heavily defensible.
sektor2111 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:33 am
ANUBITEK wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:10 pm
... and rebalanced the weapon/item/AI path node placements.
Sure, let's turn an old wrong thing into a worst one. Happening when we do have helper builders and XC and UT469 and... everything for preventing any EPIC type blabbering in pathing chapter... .
What do you mean by this? I'm assuming you mean my amateurish bot pathing. I plan to go back over the pathing after reading these posts, on my own play sessions I've seen some issues like bots jumping into death pit constantly, getting stuck walking in place on ramps, and other issues that I don't remember but the memory of disappointment was there.


Thanks for the replies everyone, I'll be sure to update the map some time tomorrow or during this week. :D
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Re: CTF-Noxion][

Post by OjitroC » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:52 am

ANUBITEK wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:10 pm
I did a retexturing of a vanilla map in UT99 a while back
My memory of the original is now very hazy so I'm not very clear what the retexturing involves? In essence, what's changed?
EvilGrins wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:33 am
OjitroC wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:31 pm
In the meantime, sektor's MapGarbage reports
Could be from the original pathing on the map prior to this edit though.
No - because I've noted what was in the original - so you can see, for example, that 2 Alternate Paths for Team 1 have been added thereby unbalancing the Alternate Paths.

Even if the imbalance were in the orginal (as it is for Defence Points, though that imbalance has been exacerabated in a sense by an increase in the number of DPs), a revised version should address that imbalance surely? Particularly for a CTF map?
sektor2111 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:33 am
Here I'm grateful for idea, indeed this map can be improved and...it will be done.
Including some of these

Code: Select all

VoidCheck: Light465 looks placed into void.
VoidCheck: Light467 looks placed into void.
VoidCheck: Light534 looks placed into void.
VoidCheck: Light536 looks placed into void.
VoidCheck: pipebend15 looks placed into void.
VoidCheck: Light741 looks placed into void.
At the risk of derailing the thread, I'm interested in what the negative impact of lights placed in the void might be? They don't need to be there (presumably) but, bluntly, does it matter (if the lighting in the map is OK)?

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Re: CTF-Noxion][

Post by sektor2111 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:34 pm

Then add 10,000 lights in void for no reason if this is the XXI century in mapping, make it 200 MB, add more useless rooms and so on. Perhaps an edit to map wants it better/improved, my apology if I miss-understood editing purpose.

I think you need to make things more simple as possible if you don't want map built with errors or unpredictable results. Editor is crapped in end, friends are calling it Goblin... just my two cents.

Anyway I'll prepare my own edit here...

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Re: CTF-Noxion][

Post by OjitroC » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:50 pm

ANUBITEK wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:10 pm
I did a retexturing of a vanilla map in UT99 a while back, also added a acid pool, modified the sky, and rebalanced the weapon/item/AI path node placements. Figured I should do a video and upload it.
Pity about the removal of the sniper rifle but I suppose doing that changes the nature of the gameplay, which may suit some people (same for the removal of 12 playerstarts which means that players now start in a more restricted location).

I see you have your name as the level author in LevelInfo - this is, of course, not accurate. It would be more appropriate to retain the original author's name and merely indicate that you have edited the map.

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Re: CTF-Noxion][

Post by sektor2111 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:13 pm

For the record, as a mapping hint which was posted on Discord - I believe no one reads forums and hints - I think it can be used here too.

How to clean up reachspecs, more exactly how to build a clean network out of junk data.
#1 Command Paths Undefine
#2 save Map and close Editor
#3 Open Editor and Map
#4 Command Paths Define
#5 Save map and drink a beer.
Woow, amazing sci-fi, right ? :loool: ... And you can have a nice Clean-Up - do not believe me, just check it yourself.

Optional stuff: MapGarbage Editor builder can clean other bytes like VisNoReachPaths and other "fascinating internals" making things more simple and clean. All is usable even out of any XC_Engine or whatever add-ons.

This map demonstrates clearly that PathNode actor belongs to Skaarj not to UT Bot. You need to be aware of that...
Tiny techs for those understanding english and coding

Code: Select all

//newPath() 
//- add new pathnode to level at position spot
void FPathBuilder::newPath(FVector spot)
{
	guard(FPathBuilder::newPath);
	
	if (Scout->CollisionHeight < 48) // fixme - base on Skaarj final height
		spot.Z = spot.Z + 48 - Scout->CollisionHeight;
	UClass *pathClass = FindObjectChecked<UClass>( ANY_PACKAGE, TEXT("PathNode") );
	APathNode *addedPath = (APathNode *)Level->SpawnActor( pathClass, NAME_None, NULL, NULL, spot );
	//clear pathnode reachspec lists
	for (INT i=0; i<16; i++)
	{
		addedPath->Paths[i] = -1;
		addedPath->upstreamPaths[i] = -1;
	}

	unguard;
	};
Cleaner is unreferencing reachSpecs and I'm wondering if reachSpecs are removed or just incremented producing more and more

Code: Select all

/* Monster path 
 returns true if supports typical (Skaarj) movement requirements
 */
int FReachSpec::MonsterPath()
{
	guard(FReachSpec::MonsterPath);

	return ( (CollisionRadius >= COMMONRADIUS) && (CollisionHeight >= MINCOMMONHEIGHT)
			&& !(reachFlags & R_FLY) ); 
	unguard;
}

int FReachSpec::BotOnlyPath()
{
	guard(FReachSpec::BotOnlyPath);

	return ( CollisionRadius < MINCOMMONRADIUS );
	
	unguard;
}
As for those RADIUS variables they are here:

Code: Select all

#define DEBUGGINGPATHS  1 //1 to put path info in log
#define MAXMARKERS 3000 //bound number of turn markers
#define MAXREACHSPECS 3000 //bound number of reachspecs 
#define MAXCOMMONRADIUS 70 //max radius to consider in building paths
#define MAXCOMMONHEIGHT 70
#define MINCOMMONHEIGHT 48 //min typical height for non-human intelligent creatures
#define MINCOMMONRADIUS 24 //min typical radius for non-human intelligent creatures
#define COMMONRADIUS    52 //max typical radius of intelligent creatures
#define HUMANRADIUS     18 //normal player pawn radius
#define HUMANHEIGHT     39 //normal playerpawn height
The plonk: MonsterPath is not considered True if it includes a R_FLY flag ? However, a Manta (is monster all day long) can use a R_FLY path, okay, okay plain UT 436 Editor will never build R_FLY paths... that's another story perfectly demonstrated by whatever UG227 capable to do more here.

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Re: CTF-Noxion][

Post by papercoffee » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:30 pm

Uhm... what does this have to do with the map?
@sektor2111

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Re: CTF-Noxion][

Post by sektor2111 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:20 pm

papercoffee wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:30 pm
Uhm... what does this have to do with the map?
@sektor2111
Answer: mainly EVERYTHING for pathing chapter and so called PathNodes "optimization" which I did not see - but, I see buggers.

Cleaning reachSpecs and Placing Nodes for BOTS not for eagles, because PathNodes placed on those stairs are useless causing charges for no reason - Yes I cleaned map (even PathNodes - this is not how I'm putting Nodes for Bots -> @EPIC and @Everyone). I did a pathing practice session here and I did not need ANY PATHNODE on any STAIR because that cylinder (50×46) is not for Bot in ramps - is for Skaarj, the rest are "explanations" copied directly from resources written by Factory - perhaps are helping with understanding what's going on toward Bot Pathing - and what PathNode optimization means.

I REPEAT THEN - these should be taken in account IN THIS map and not only here... lol.
Last edited by sektor2111 on Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: CTF-Noxion][

Post by papercoffee » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:32 pm

Thanks for clarification.

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Re: CTF-Noxion][

Post by Red_Fist » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:38 am

papercoffee wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:30 pm
Uhm... what does this have to do with the map?
@sektor2111

And what does THAT have to do with the map ?, geez.

He just jumps into code type of thinking, more or less.

We need all types here. Hell, around here we had v469 before they thought of it,,,,LoLzzz
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Re: CTF-Noxion][

Post by sektor2111 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:25 am

Yes, UT469 "accidentally" shows those things and how are those nodes having no incoming connection. You can walk in map after sending ShowAll command and look at the sky - perhaps a pathnode will block your view to the sky being placed "optimized" (not even Skaarj can navigate through a one-way node).

We were talking before about PlayerStart and their compatibility with Bot/Human player. Of course, we don't need Playerstarts all over the place, we can adjust cylinder for PathNode class (AND NOT saving Engine file), and we can start pathing map using modified size for PathNode - that simple - and not touching their properties post placement. MapGarbage does a "Pre-Navigation-Hack" through variable bPreNavigAddHck, helping at mapping paths - sure, no one cares.
What can we do with nodes already originally placed in map ?
Two solutions:
#1 Deleting them and adding others pre-OPTIMIZED with cylinder 40×20 before placing them - yeah, get rid of EPIC's junks (paths undefine, paths remove commands);
#2 Select all of them, and Moving them lower with 10-12 UU.
Deleting reachSpecs, saving map, closing editor, opening again Editor and Map, defining paths. Wow, rocket science.

No worries, whoever opens map later will see nodes "normal", having 50×46 but lowered correctly for Bots.

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Re: CTF-Noxion][

Post by ANUBITEK » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:16 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:25 am
[Much pathing talk]
When my weekend comes up (starting this Sunday), I'm going to be reworking the pathing starting with deletion of all nodes and reworking from there. Any and all advice you have is appreciated, I'm going to also do some reading around on the forum to see if I can't get some info. When I had originally done the pathing, I was unaware of things like even reachspecs count increasing when paths are generated. I had originally rebuilt the paths in order to stop bots from getting stuck in certain places or from running back and forth, though both seem to have failed by just moving the spots where these issues happen.
OjitroC wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:50 pm
ANUBITEK wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:10 pm
I did a retexturing of a vanilla map in UT99 a while back, also added a acid pool, modified the sky, and rebalanced the weapon/item/AI path node placements. Figured I should do a video and upload it.
Pity about the removal of the sniper rifle but I suppose doing that changes the nature of the gameplay, which may suit some people (same for the removal of 12 playerstarts which means that players now start in a more restricted location).

I see you have your name as the level author in LevelInfo - this is, of course, not accurate. It would be more appropriate to retain the original author's name and merely indicate that you have edited the map.
The idea behind the removal of the sniper was trying to restrict combat to closer quarters. Also yeah, I was on the fence about that author name edit, I'll change that back next time I give the map a pass.
OjitroC wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:52 am
ANUBITEK wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:10 pm
I did a retexturing of a vanilla map in UT99 a while back
My memory of the original is now very hazy so I'm not very clear what the retexturing involves? In essence, what's changed?
I'll post screenshots when I get around to editing the map, but it is mostly floor textures in hallways, the flag rooms, acid pit is completely new, sky box is mostly new (mountains/ground textures added, re-lit). Others I think I'm forgetting. The map is mostly a weapons/items placement rebalance really.


I'm not doing any work until Sunday, my job has me working at night so I'm really sloppy with creative stuff right now. I'm actually writing this message between me sleeping, dogs woke me up.
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