Is this worth fixing?

Tutorials and discussions about Mapping - Introduce your own ones!
User avatar
Chamberly
Godlike
Posts: 1951
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:32 pm
Personal rank: Dame. Vandora
Location: TN, USA
Contact:

Re: Is this worth fixing?

Post by Chamberly » Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:39 pm

I do remember one of the playerstart is out of the void, and that's the one inside of the freaking stove because when I'm trying to spec a match well we're stuck there, can't f5 anyone or so. It freaking sucks because demo recording playback doesn't show anything either. I told the guys like hey the player start is in a wrong location, fix map and we'll have it to normal but no they didn't want to edit any map because they claim 'don't break what's not broken'. They don't even know how the game fully work. Christ stake, it is such a mess. I won't point out 'who' for drama but there are people out there that say that.

Now with this in mind, I have an idea to bring up for v469. Gonna double check with XC_Engine first though. The player start may have been part of the issue to make the crash as well..
Image
Image
Image Edit: Why does my sig not work anymore?

User avatar
OjitroC
Godlike
Posts: 1877
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:46 pm

Re: Is this worth fixing?

Post by OjitroC » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:28 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:36 pm
If you, guys, want to do more than I did or to ruin something, be my guest, adjusted map-file is this one:
Just to note that that version of the map has missing textures like doors, skirting boards, other areas of wood, cooker etc (at least it does for me in 469).

User avatar
sektor2111
Godlike
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: On the roof.

Re: Is this worth fixing?

Post by sektor2111 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:45 pm

Chamberly wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:39 pm
I do remember one of the playerstart is out of the void, and that's the one inside of the freaking stove because when I'm trying to spec a match well we're stuck there, can't f5 anyone or so. It freaking sucks because demo recording playback doesn't show anything either. I told the guys like hey the player start is in a wrong location, fix map and we'll have it to normal but no they didn't want to edit any map because they claim 'don't break what's not broken'. They don't even know how the game fully work.
This is visible if you take a look at map's state. They are just slow minded and ignorant. Not broken ? They don't even have a clue when things are broken or not and how does it look a broken map - evidence is this map itself.
Okay, what was done so far ?
Textures UnTouched because building geometry will ruin map - brushes are gone. Navigation Chain is rebuild with less data, PlayerStarts, useless, located into void are DELETED BEFORE recreating paths. Map should work but Textures are just plain "Sheet". Now it's a DeathMatch for fans of "DefaultTexture". Those whom changed "DefaultTexture" perhaps are happy with this abomination. I tried to stay inside 3000 with regard to reachSpecs used...
Chamberly wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:39 pm
The player start may have been part of the issue to make the crash as well..
I don't know every single detail from DevPath but... I don't want to find out what is happening when last reachSpec is referring to something NULL and neither when Engine is calculating a route through nodes located in void (see how many are in void)... The rest of speech it's not good for public posting in forum, I don't want to throw more gasoline in fire. These are not mappers and they brought a clean evidence about that, doesn't matter what they think.
Not only MonsterHunt is loaded with TRASH, UT generally has this problem - any yes, we are going to fix even 5000 maps if are more or less similar to this one - including those using NavigationPoints as decorations out of their purpose because cube drawers cannot write an animation code...

Red_Fist
Godlike
Posts: 1823
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Is this worth fixing?

Post by Red_Fist » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:26 pm

I deleted all the path nodes.

But this a one-brusher, but could be copied with separate brushes. :evil:

A few spots need fixing, collision and some wall deco stuff need new subtracts added in.

Check it out, go ahead I dare you to path it. :mrgreen:

I would connect it with lift exits for the long stretches.
Attachments
DMFNLOMA333.zip
MAP UNR ONLY, no other files
(2.9 MiB) Downloaded 4 times
Binary Space Partitioning

User avatar
sektor2111
Godlike
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: On the roof.

Re: Is this worth fixing?

Post by sektor2111 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:39 pm

Starting with... yesterday (and it will be available soon) I Implemented some combo stuff in MapGarbage. Doing combos right now it's piece of cake:
- Add LiftExit as entry
- Add jumpspot or whatever Liftcenter and putting it for impact or whatever
- Add LiftExit on the other side
- Select ALL
- push button with bool set to True
- All Combo points are not connected with an unique LiftTag - if Lift exist it will have tag accordingly (if selected) and if Lift was a button it will get turned into Lift.
All it's faster than editing 4 actors. I made over 20 combos in a few minutes.

Fool Note: I was dumb because I did not do this earlier, months ago - Where the heck was my brain :loool: ?
Red_Fist wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:26 pm
I would connect it with lift exits for the long stretches.
Not necessary, XC does what it's needed up to 2000 range as I could see so far... The rest it's 227 if something is wrongfully connected.

And then I have to ask what can you see as long as for me these are having no Texture. I don't understand those screenshots where are coming from...
This is what I see and I don't really like these:
NotGettingThese.PNG
Editor says "Surface" - no Texture and it loads default one - so map "it's not broken", LOL.

Edit:
@RedFist - I see some brush recovery but... in other side, with regard to the initial crash reason, here it's nothing too much fixed. You have deleted PathNodes (which I can recreate back in seconds from previous map), but... there are InventorySpots and Ammo and PlayerStart2 into void not in map and still somewhere are loaded more than 4000 reachSpecs... Have you checked these ? Deleting PathNodes and leaving reachSpecs referencing deletions are not exactly a fix.

Red_Fist
Godlike
Posts: 1823
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Is this worth fixing?

Post by Red_Fist » Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:22 am

I assumed the ammo and pickups still make nodes.

It was 112,000 , After I did that then sent the left over actors to-last, the reaschpect thing went down to 1,600

I did not have the missing textures like that.

I didn't look into the void for things. But it's the outline of the map so at least you can get an idea of what the brushes looked like.
Plus I think the one brush map seems built better !!! LoL
Binary Space Partitioning

User avatar
OjitroC
Godlike
Posts: 1877
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:46 pm

Re: Is this worth fixing?

Post by OjitroC » Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:32 am

If we come back to the question in the thread title "Is this worth fixing" then the answer is NO. Why spend time trying to fix a botched so-called remixed map which doesn't have brushes and has a deleted room which has given rise to problems when the original version is available. That has brushes and has no problems with textures - if you want to improve the pathing, why not improve the pathing on that version (should it require it)?

The other thing is that this is a hybrid map in a sense - part sniper, part run and gun. Mini-me maps normally work best as sniper maps in which bots don't have much of a role really - pathing a sniper map turns it into something else unless you just path small areas around player starts where those areas include pickups - but that would only really work where the starts are fairly well hidden and not out in the open. In essence, the type of map we have here is best played by humans - bots are going to use the 'ground level' fine but they aren't going to use the lifts and then camp and snipe.

The other problem with this type of map is that sniping is best done at ground level where all the action is - the objective in DM is to get most kills and neither bots nor humans are going to do that by using the upper levels as they are not going to be well populated - to get most kills and win, one needs to be where the action is and, with bots, that is going to be at ground level around the major pickups and where the normal weapons are.

So, for this reason as well, it's not worth fixing the map as one has to consider is it going to get much play?

User avatar
sektor2111
Godlike
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: On the roof.

Re: Is this worth fixing?

Post by sektor2111 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:39 pm

Red_Fist wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:22 am
It was 112,000 , After I did that then sent the left over actors to-last, the reaschpect thing went down to 1,600
I did not have the missing textures like that.
From your recovered I see 4000+ removed and then... can you just tell me textures names ? I see that white jelly junk in more surfaces, it's nothing like a texture or... it requires another texture with complete blocks which might be missing from my assets.
OjitroC wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:32 am
bots are going to use the 'ground level' fine but they aren't going to use the lifts
You cannot convince me about that - maybe you have to look well at junk version which I pathed using my Garbage friend.
Anyway, if exist a normal version I think I can "teleport" my nodes into that one, and... everybody can have a joy. In servers not using Bots paths are not damaging anything, and because I don't pay for PathNodes I'll throw these inside because it won't take 3 MB + reachSpecs. Parhaps some sh!t music takes 30+ MB which I'll turn off by any matter because I want game sounds.
Anyway Textures used here were making me curious about their content, definitely here something is missing in my assets and I want to figure what's going on. Pathing is too easy, that's the last task for a potential fixed map.

EDIT: LOL Lolzers
File BRdmSE.utx is DIFFERENT in Map's package and it's from 2002 while other one it's 2000. Now I'll look at these two what is missing through each-other.
Last edited by sektor2111 on Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
OjitroC
Godlike
Posts: 1877
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:46 pm

Re: Is this worth fixing?

Post by OjitroC » Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:50 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:39 pm
OjitroC wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:32 am
bots are going to use the 'ground level' fine but they aren't going to use the lifts
You cannot convince me about that - maybe you have to look well at junk version which I pathed using my Garbage friend.
I'm sure the bots will use the lifts as you've set them up - but my point was a wider one about the map's gameplay and I actually said " bots are going to use the 'ground level' fine but they aren't going to use the lifts and then camp and snipe". Bots will use the lifts but probably not camp but follow the path, pick up items and take the lift back down. So I was questioning whether this type of map, which is neither wholly a sniper map nor wholly a run and gun map, actually works well in terms of its overall gameplay or, at least, works to its full potential, particularly for bots.

The orginal version of the map can be found here dm-littlesoldiersse_9570dfa7.html

User avatar
sektor2111
Godlike
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: On the roof.

Re: Is this worth fixing?

Post by sektor2111 » Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:20 am

Yes, I found it. Original seems better in all ways but... overloaded. As my note, when such a map has a LOT of PathNodes and LiftCenters (more or less messed up) definitely Bot Support was one of goals - incomplete. And I see that pathing is doable under 3000 reachSpecs and then... it will be a war which it comes to Bot Play. If map runs in servers out of Bots, player camping won't mess anything.
OjitroC wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:50 pm
I'm sure the bots will use the lifts as you've set them up
Then take a look at show, I know what I did there... Some combos are done in OldSkool style for heading ONLY down, those points are going to be reported as high nodes but they won't lock down anything. Else you can sample me a spot where a combo bugs them... I don't want to mess up the same spot in the other map. Here I will add paths to powerups as UDamage in order to make them to move up not playing only on the floor. But during this time I have to reduce the load in room A for making a new charge in B and sitting inside Engine.
Going up at Top Level is easy, going at Level below Top won't work other way and neither next steps. LiftExit in such case is placed higher on purpose for causing One Way. All it's logic - unless I forgot something else in whatever area - map is not that small after all.

Anyway right now I was touching that original one - I see that PlayerStart2, it will get connected somehow as it is using another unidirectional COMBO, I did paths and now I'm completing some missing routes... It takes a while because... it's not small. Then it comes Live testing.

User avatar
sektor2111
Godlike
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: On the roof.

Re: Is this worth fixing?

Post by sektor2111 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:47 am

I cannot say that this is fully fixed but... now it has more logic connections for combos than it was before... adjust what you think it needs adjusted. Ammo is not in account for paths, we do have... 3000 reachSpecs.
DM-LittleSoldiersSE_rS3000.7z
(2.14 MiB) Downloaded 3 times
Some zone was changed due to Bot's logic regarding to Translocator usage (Bot has more logic than it was in map...)
You can check if it's useful...

Post Reply