DM-Deck16][ improved paths

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Buggie
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DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by Buggie » Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:54 pm

Beta 1:
DM-Deck16][bots1.7z
Bots can:
- go to teleport.
- reach redemeer with boots.
- pick up Flac on box in dead end.
- pick up pulse on box.
- reach shield from different spots.
- reach top sniper from things pad side.
- reach udamage with boots.
- reach armor from ground with jump to box.
- jump over box after pickup health near lift.
- jump with boots to different spots.
- camp in many places.
- walk at back boxes on top and in dead end with flac.
- less jump where not need this.
- do not walk over lift when want get health.

known problems:
- If bot have boots can be some problem with jumps. Especially with armor. Often.
- possible stuck on box above medboxes near lift. Rare.

Map not yet conformed to original because not last beta.
If you know things which can be added to paths for bots - describe here.
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Last edited by Buggie on Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sektor2111
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Re: DM-Deck16-][ improved paths

Post by sektor2111 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:12 pm

Buggie wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:54 pm
- possible stuck on box above medboxes near lift. Rare.

Map not yet conformed to original because not last beta.
Stuck near lifts maybe because of these

Code: Select all

...
NoIncomingPath: PathNode130 is not having incoming connections.
...
UnReachableNodes: PathNode130 looks much over ground for normal Human Size, check it.
Highly located nodes are not helping in any way. You might need triggers for jumping.
Then:

Code: Select all

MaxNumFound: I found 3490 reachspecs, from 0 to 3489.
Deck16 types don't need so many paths at all, I did 3000 paths in bigger maps which still can be reduced. Such load doesn't make any sense.

And :shock:
Map conformed !? Does this even work ? Is a different structure of actors compatible with another ? Light me here...

Simple steps for Deck16 series:
- Paths Undefine
- Save As - some name
- close Editor
- Open Editor
- Open Map
- Delete all nodes closer to Inventories at less than 120-150 units and closer each-other in the same way - I won't list all buggers.
- Build paths using XC_PathsBuilder;
- clean pathing junks;
- save map;
- Open UGold227h or 227i with PathsLinker;
- delete all "Jeronimo" Uber reachspecs and bad angled reachspecs with ledges; -> Perhaps combos using paths like the one from LiftExit37 to JumpSpot16 are... translocation jerks, I don't get the point of passing through floor like that, this is not an improvement;
- connect missing links with 30 × 50 - if spot supports Editor probing, reachSpec collision is recommended automatically by PathsLinker - because we want MONSTERS as well not only Bots in here; -> I would like to connect PathNode75 to Pathnode49 using reachFlag 9 and 90×108 collision :mrgreen: .
- adjust other Green specs for being White if needed - less reachSpecs = a better view and control over them;
- save map;
- close UGold Editor;
- Open UT Editor;
- Load map and check for "Byte property not found" craps;
- Save map again from there if "Byte property not found" messages were encountered. UT doesn't really use foreign bytes and probably Garbage Collector is not happy with null references that have to be removed.

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Que
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Re: DM-Deck16-][ improved paths

Post by Que » Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:55 am

Just what the doctor ordered.. thanks Buggy !!

@sektor perhaps you could release a good version as well..
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Re: DM-Deck16-][ improved paths

Post by Buggie » Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:23 am

Sektor: go ahead and make own version.

I am fine with my buggie bugged paths, if its produce result which I want see in bots match.
----
My limitation: I do not want build manual network which can not be rebuilt in v469.
Of course I can build network, after that move some actors for achieve desired result, but rebuilt this way not survive.
I do not want do this.
So i stuck with only place and move actors and rebuilt paths again and again.

It will be good if bot can dodge to shield from udamage or from shield to boots, but bots not able do that. And no any paths for this not fit.

Also I can not make way to shield from central arc from dead end with flac.
Too small space for UEd for make path down. Best what I get ruined in action - bot run to wall.

All other human things which I know - I implement. Some of them not useful for bots, so I not try add Jump spot for jump via window from minigun.
It useful for humans when they play against humans, but hardly useful for bots.

All jump tricks is rare, because only 3 jumps and bots spent it fast enough.
If play fair. Sometimes they jump high with boots, but without boots sound. Like with walk but very high like with boots.

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Re: DM-Deck16-][ improved paths

Post by sektor2111 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:16 am

Buggie wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:23 am
My limitation: I do not want build manual network which can not be rebuilt in v469.
A manual good network DOESN'T need any rebuild for getting screwed. If it works it can stay as it is, why would it need to be modified ? Why not using tools ?
This can be done in multiple ways, uni-directional combo jumps, translocator options, a more "ground" route for UDamage is doable, combos for climbing on Boxes or getting items from them, etc. These can be done with user made paths - less data - or automated combos, a bit more expensive.
User made paths are superior in all way to any 469 470 480 and all automated pathing devs - these don't have eyes and it's why I'm not bother with them.
But... if users here are happy then let's leave the people happy, sooner or later will see translocation failures due to WALL(Floor) PATHS which I described, not everything is UT_JumpBoots related. At playing with 2 Bots maybe I don't need to see them camping anywhere. EASY targets, any challenge ? There is NOTHING to defend in a deathmatch, just camping and being killed.
The fact is my version from 2015 won't be replaced with these overcrowded types, I'd rather prefer to reconstruct everything.

EDIT:
Perhaps 672 reachSpecs are a "softer" processing than 4600+, and then... I think I like reachSpec 669. Isn't it a beauty ?

Code: Select all

Specs: MyLink0 - Paths[2]=669 ->MyLink0 --->MyLink1 RFlags=Special Jump =40 Dist=80
Connected: MyLink0 to MyLink1.
It says "Special Jump", damn, I love it, and Bots too:
NoImpactNoTrasloc.PNG
To be honest I did not test map with novice Bots in Classic Setup because I'm not using baboons in my games. In classic settings I doubt about climbing on those boxes... (PulseGun, that Flak..., maybe more).
DM-Deck16_rS672.7z
Other recommendations ?
If not, I think it's time to remove stock Deck16 from my repositories.
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Re: DM-Deck16-][ improved paths

Post by Que » Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:38 am

@sektor for some reason , bots get stuck in redeemer area for long periods of time before dropping off ledge.
perhaps something to look into.
they go for the Amp more often from the ramp which is good.
have not seen them go for Amp using @Buggies version yet.
perhaps because they exspell the boots around the minigun area.
perhaps better location of impact hammer jumps will assist in getting amp.

both versions are a great improvement on the original deck welldone.
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Re: DM-Deck16-][ improved paths

Post by Buggie » Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:50 am

For me they use hammer for get udamage. And boots also used.

About special jump - I try achieve this with v469 default paths builder, but failed. Maybe can not be done on it.
sektor2111 wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:16 am
Other recommendations ?
Bots stuck at redemeer area. Lost path. Start wandering. If lucky accidentally find enter to network and goes down.
Also teleport is above ground so bots jumps after exit.

Also paths after exit from teleport is bad so bot start goes back, only after that run forward.

Pickup pulse with jump to box. On my version just run near.

Not able pickup udamage with boots.

From middle ramp just fall down with damage to lowest level. not to shield.

Also some stuff bugged, because my UT on some point minimized. Restore not easy, but after alt+enter I able restore, but mouse stuck.

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Re: DM-Deck16-][ improved paths

Post by sektor2111 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:16 pm

Okay, I'm curious what's with redeemer area. Probably they are not loving those combos, I can switch them with anything else, that's easy.

Just taking what you say in account because... I played map ON-Line without any issue, I was even more times victim of that redeemer, but let me look... Some mods might not handle that lift out of ImpactHammer or whatever and then I'll connect a Node or two on ledges linked at LiftExits in both cases. Cough or two reachSPecs - EDITED.
Buggie wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:50 am
Also paths after exit from teleport is bad so bot start goes back, only after that run forward.
That's teleporter code, Path IS NOT bugged at all, and then, I can write another one (Teleporter), lol., but is easy to put it down because it has no route back and it will react properly. Then... camping with impacthammer near teleporter for lame killing will go available and then... NO, I won't DO anything at position as long as teleporter spot works as it is, probably putting it higher or doing a "runner" in area, a kicker for Bot or something else. That will be for you because I see my 440 and 469 having no problems.
Buggie wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:50 am
If lucky accidentally find enter to network and goes down.
There is no accident in any way. Paths are there, that's SpecialHandling or SpecialCost denial, a node will solve "issue".
Buggie wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:50 am
Pickup pulse with jump to box. On my version just run near.
Lol ? I explained setup here around jumping on a box - paths are logically connected. Can you explain where is the bug ?
Buggie wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:50 am
Not able pickup udamage with boots.
Easy to adjust some locations, not a big deal as long as OTHER WAY is open - they are GETTING this anyway. and if there are other options I won't claim this as "need fixed" because it doesn't need a fix In arena matches out of UT_JumpBoots. They are capable to gain UDamage and KILL without any Inventory.
Buggie wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:50 am
From middle ramp just fall down with damage to lowest level. not to shield.
And I will link more "clumsy-bot" stuff - player is frustrated if they do have 99% movement accuracy. I connected those paths on purpose for my personal fun - not an accident there, I'm not concerned about that "fall". Unlink reachSpec if you don't like it.
Buggie wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:50 am
Also some stuff bugged, because my UT on some point minimized. Restore not easy, but after alt+enter I able restore, but mouse stuck.
If ScreenShoot is not bugged by 227 and if I take in account what Que said, I think I don't need to look at anything for this point. But I'll look at ScreenShot anyway because... I'm curious.

Edit: Or... two reachspecs, lol.
DM-Deck16_rS674.7z
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Last edited by sektor2111 on Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by Buggie » Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:21 pm

Beta2:
DM-Deck16][bots2.7z
Bots can:
- pickup minigun with jump from above.
- less stuck on minigun ammo.
- jump from ramp to udamage.
- jump from lower ramp to down and shield.
- swim from acid below sniper rifle.
- better jump to shield from lower ground with boots.
- jump to shield from middle ramp start.
- jump with boots from lower ground to middle ramp.
- better path from flak to rockets.

Finally shield can be reach from 3 different ways without boots. And udamage in one way without boots.
So bots lost interest to boots.

With boots bots able do combo of two jump for reach from ground udamage.
Firstly on middle ramp, secondly to high ramp and jump down to udamage.

In many places used class from sektor. Thanks.
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Re: DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by sektor2111 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:34 pm

Buggie wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:21 pm
In many places used class from sektor. Thanks.
Your welcome, there are a TON of options for jumping, translocating, and maybe more. The harder task is matching common difficulty used by Player. High skilled Bots and faster games are having more options - to discuss conditions about discarding "bad-ass" paths when game is set in low-skill...
I'm still going for less map charge.

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Re: DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by Red_Fist » Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:18 am

I always take the approach of an already done maps is, thinking "fine tuning" using the stuff that was there before deleting or adding stuff. I usually always "place" new nodes as opposed to moving one.

But I had an idea, I wonder how it would change bot flow, if at all, but I bet it does.

What if you put fearspots all along the rim of the acid pool. Just close enough to the edge to form a smooth line of radius's so it won't interfere with the existing paths. I would need to play and watch them to see if it made a difference. BUT is it not a spot to be feared ? it only seems fair to the way the game works. (just as an experiment).
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On a side note I just found out a pawn needs to be set to HUMAN to go through warp zones right away.
I need a fix for that to not interfere with other function of the pawn as reptile or less than human, warpzone issue only. I can't find an area in scripted pawn or warpzone that I can see as a novice to change code.
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Re: DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by Que » Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:20 am

@Buggie there appears to be random teleporter actors or something spawning between the pulse & amplifier area's
for example when running through here you are immediately teleported down to the Goo.
Image
this also happens at other random area's between the pulse and amp as mentioned above.


@sektor it is also happening on your map... at top of ramp near sniper.
there must be some weird kind of scripting in the map.

:help:
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Re: DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by Buggie » Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:19 am

Sektor hackish class extend teleporter. So your server / mutator try use it as teleporter. Maybe replace it.
I check on raw pure server. Even on dedic - all work fine. My preview for teleports too triggered on this class, but actual teleport not happens.
You need look at your server / mutators.
----
Bots not fall in acid intentionally.
I add BlockedPath for prevent bots from jump from sniper above acid. Bots always jump here and fall to acid.

But you can not prevent bots get to acid. Except place BlockPlayers, which is not an option.

Accidentally they can fall in acid.

Also it happens when they try jump on central ramp or work with shield. With human players it is can be too. So I do not see any problem here.

Bots must be able out from acid. For this they must see enter to paths network. If this not happen, then they start wandering in acid and slimed.
---
Here sektor class:

Code: Select all

//=============================================================================
// MyLink.
//=============================================================================
class MyLink expands Teleporter;

event PostBeginPlay()
{
	Disable('Touch');
}

event bool Accept( actor Incoming, Actor Source )
{
	return Super(NavigationPoint).Accept( Incoming, Source);
}

event Touch( actor Other )
{}

function Actor SpecialHandling(Pawn Other)
{
	return self;
}
Look like your server / mutator replace all teleporters on levels.

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Re: DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by Que » Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:12 am

ahh yes we use NewNet ... which i believe replaces teleporters :/

will revert to Bots1 Map.
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Re: DM-Deck16][ improved paths

Post by sektor2111 » Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 am

Then FORGET maps having MyLevel if those "NewNew" things are blindly changing teleporters. I'm using some tweaks for teleporters too, but they work only for STOCK teleporters. And then, prototype of that connector teleporter has origins in 512k mapping contest - it's ancient, if your mods are poorly coded that's another story. Combos are usable here but... Why processing more data ?
Map which I posted second time has now the two missing reachSpecs from redeemer (I'm using translocator and then I have had no issues...) and it doesn't include issues except "classic" setup which I'm not using and I "replaced" Deck16 in M.G.S. Issues ? NO.
Nothing is more annoying than a NewNet which simply ruins teleporters paths for A.I. - All Teleporters ? That's a joke :loool: - This is why you were talking about good Bot Support needed ? You won't have it in these NewNet UBER tweaks.

Techs
:
First of all a reachSpec is heading route through two actors called Start - End - usually are navigation points. Here we are talking about ORIGINAL teleporters, if you are disabling them due to "replacement" - bot-trash more exactly, these reachSpecs must be adjusted as well. And now show me where in NewNet these reachSpecs connecting teleporters are having edited data. Let me see: NOWHERE. Editing reachSpec need natives which UT doesn't have available in run-time but Automated in Editor and doing sucks at random. NewNet should include in server-side certain C++ plugins, addons for several tasks. UScript doesn't do anything than destroying navigation and not creating navigation. It's why

Code: Select all

	NewNet != Bot_Support
LOL. I can do a mutator for launching Bot Support after 2 minutes from starting match. Strategy will include some jerky stuff. Map must have Bot Support which can be DISABLED and ENABLED back after a while. So to speak, mutator won't bring Bots back into roaming creating Bot Support, it will activate Network which is already there and it was there all time. Only XC_Engine assets might do something for adjusting or creating navigation in run-time and they work pretty well - no comments here. M.G.S. server is an evidence which can be seen by anybody.

@RedFirst
Options for doing some navigation tweaks are doable at UScript Level - due to the destruction capability which UScript has for navigation. It depends of how we want to do them. We can use lists with maps names and arrays with navigation actors intended for being toggled. We can adjust ExtraCost or a wrong path can be un-referenced from navigation point bugger. Otherwise we can work blindly sorting certain PathNodes which we want locked/unlocked in time.
Let me see, FEARSPOT is not an answer here - pawn will crawl around because DevPath is not rejecting smallest route without operating navigation and FearSpot it's just a trigger doing nothing at this point, it's just stopping pawn temporary.
Me one I'm not too busy here, such mutator will need GOOD MAPS as first needed support for working. Hard to find goodies - after 20 years of UT, we don't know how to setup COMBOS and their rules. That OMA tagged whatever sniper map is TRASH at this point - they do not even have any clue what they do. Making mutator for who ? Mobile Navigation mutator which I wrote is good for plain DevPath not for XC paths finding which has another rules - as result I won't do anything. In a map I wrote shooting button support working properly - flawless, in XC stage bot is shooting and running at button damaging himself at this point, when my work is happily bugged then I'm not going to work anymore.
Deck16][ could have lockers for jumping at shield, also could have locks for redeemer but that's a myth, reachSpec heading at teleporter is missing a la EPIC, like many others, but we have useless PathNodes overcrowded and loops around minigun spot for ZERO purpose. I tested these with Bot tools and then I know what I'm talking about.
Last edited by sektor2111 on Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:44 am, edited 3 times in total.