DM-Skaun][ - Beta 1

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OjitroC
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Re: DM-Skaun][ - Beta 1

Post by OjitroC » Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:47 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:17 pm
Wrong answer.
Brushes mixed like that are doing these effects, at least I noticed that in previous version they weren't only mixed into each-other but not having merged polys for reducing those lines from surfaces.
I see the areas you're referring to - after revisiting the map I can only confirm that there is no flickering or other problems there when using OpenGL so I can only report what I see. This is not to say of course that you are not correct.

I suppose it serves to demonstrate that mappers need to test their creations with all the renderers that people are likely to use (and possibly to test maps in different UT versions as well).

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sektor2111
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Re: DM-Skaun][ - Beta 1

Post by sektor2111 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:20 pm

Yeah, the same old Flak won't load Tournament ammo... For me map it's not ready... Mapping it's time consuming, it's what I don't have that much...
Majority of those lines from floors and all those can be vanished by merging polys...
Last edited by sektor2111 on Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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OjitroC
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Re: DM-Skaun][ - Beta 1

Post by OjitroC » Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:46 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:20 pm
Yeah, the same old Flak won't load Tournament ammo...
UT swaps that though? Same with the RifleRounds?

More from the log
Spoiler
Show
ScriptLog: Found DM-Skaun][.FlakCannon0 at 493.194183,605.753113,11.827953
ScriptLog: Found DM-Skaun][.RifleRound0 at 928.000000,192.000000,-16.000000
ScriptLog: Found DM-Skaun][.RifleRound1 at 928.000000,224.000000,-16.000000
ScriptLog: Found DM-Skaun][.RifleRound2 at 928.418701,257.970245,-16.000000
ScriptLog: Found DM-Skaun][.RifleRound3 at 224.000000,128.000000,-272.000000
ScriptLog: Found DM-Skaun][.RifleRound4 at 224.303452,172.358444,-272.000000
ScriptLog: Found DM-Skaun][.RifleRound5 at 191.696594,194.124268,-272.000000
ScriptLog: Found DM-Skaun][.RifleRound6 at -1152.121582,75.989555,-496.000000
ScriptLog: Found DM-Skaun][.RifleRound7 at -1200.286499,76.597198,-496.000000
ScriptLog: Found DM-Skaun][.RifleRound8 at -1245.532471,77.204842,-496.000000
ScriptLog: Warning: DM-Skaun][.Mover0 is BumpOpenTimed. Bots don't understand this well - use StandOpenTimed instead!
ScriptLog: Warning: DM-Skaun][.Mover1 is BumpOpenTimed. Bots don't understand this well - use StandOpenTimed instead!
ScriptLog: Warning: DM-Skaun][.Mover3 is BumpOpenTimed. Bots don't understand this well - use StandOpenTimed instead!
ScriptLog: Warning: DM-Skaun][.Mover2 is BumpOpenTimed. Bots don't understand this well - use StandOpenTimed instead!

Not seen this before [this is in 469b]
Log: The compressed mipmaps of texture DM-Skaun][.Evil-Lair.trim1 contained invalid data. We will try to use the uncompressed mipmaps instead.
Log: The compressed mipmaps of texture DM-Skaun][.Panel.cp_scrolltextblu1_a02 contained invalid data. We will try to use the uncompressed mipmaps instead.
Log: The compressed mipmaps of texture DM-Skaun][.Panel.cp_scrolltextblu1_a03 contained invalid data. We will try to use the uncompressed mipmaps instead.
Log: The compressed mipmaps of texture DM-Skaun][.Panel.cp_scrolltextblu1_a04 contained invalid data. We will try to use the uncompressed mipmaps instead.
Log: The compressed mipmaps of texture DM-Skaun][.Panel.cp_scrolltextblu1_a05 contained invalid data. We will try to use the uncompressed mipmaps instead.
Log: The compressed mipmaps of texture DM-Skaun][.Panel.cp_scrolltextblu1_a06 contained invalid data. We will try to use the uncompressed mipmaps instead.
Log: The compressed mipmaps of texture DM-Skaun][.Panel.cp_scrolltextblu1_a01 contained invalid data. We will try to use the uncompressed mipmaps instead.
Log: The compressed mipmaps of texture DM-Skaun][.Wall.wallcy2 contained invalid data. We will try to use the uncompressed mipmaps instead.

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sektor2111
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Re: DM-Skaun][ - Beta 1

Post by sektor2111 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:49 pm

Yes, I saw the log, now we are on the common ground....

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Pikko
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Re: DM-Skaun][ - Beta 1

Post by Pikko » Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:07 pm

Found some issues myself, so it needs more work. :cry:

- Thanks for the help.

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Re: DM-Skaun][ - Beta 1

Post by Gustavo6046 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:04 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:20 pm
Majority of those lines from floors and all those can be vanished by merging polys...
I personally never got the point of merging polys. It never seemed to do anything.

In fact, most things recommended by engine-fussers are things that seem to have little to no impact. Aligning vertices to the grid makes it easier to change level geometry when the need arises, but I have found that a little bit of decimal point here and there won't hurt anybody.

As long as the map works and doesn't have any serious bugs, the most important thing ever... is making it!!! Detailing, layouting, populating, aligning things nicely, with attention to detail. You know, things that only Doom mappers do nowadays, because they didn't need to fuss about limits and tiny quirks ever since Boom came out, and the results are pretty noticeable.

Image

So... just do it!

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sektor2111
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Re: DM-Skaun][ - Beta 1

Post by sektor2111 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:34 pm

Gustavo6046 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:04 pm
I personally never got the point of merging polys. It never seemed to do anything.
Seriously !? You have issues with eyes my little friend. Then let's compare what was shared (in Editor) vs what I got.
Original
NOT_merged.PNG
And newer one:
YES_Merged.PNG
Huh ? :loool: No differences, right ?
Even those "masked" textures are masked for real and other textures went a bit loved... When these are well aligned without errors, merging polys returns an unique surface without those stupid poly lines crossing in the middle of nowhere.

First time I lost map, I aligned vertices at 1 UU grid and whatever brush (unlisted by Goblin as usual - including 469b) crashed during build. I restarted job and then 469b crashed at fixing a texture. Then I replaced borked texture with anything else (a similar one in the same MyLevel :noidea I don't get the duplicated ) and then I filtered things through 227. There was needed recoding swJumpPad for being compatible with 227. Then some textures were splitting hair at D3D and I had to fix them using 469b. Then I have aligned textures from those caves for getting them as a single wall not pieces, then... I deleted some PathNodes, adding a forced MyLink in that "velo-ramp" ( code includes a feature anti-crap aiming NewNet ) - I did not tested if all goes fine because I won't install any NewNet here - pathing was done for 512 Scout ScanRange generating this way around 760 reachSpecs, I don't see why would be more in here. Then, I have to re-hunt reachSpecs causing damage or heavy paths, perhaps tinkering a bit one of swJumpPads - and it needs again tested... Later I made a bit visible several coronas BEHIND a translucent surface (these are not normally visible) and I was toying with a few lights a bit. If game will show some clumsy Bot in whatever place I will need to destroy evil reachSpecs with a trip through 227, grrr...
I think soon I will lose patience, perhaps I'll quit inspecting every single detail... it depends on my future state...
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Re: DM-Skaun][ - Beta 1

Post by Gustavo6046 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:05 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:34 pm
Huh ? :loool: No differences, right ?
Nope, no differences ingame. What happens in the editor doesn't matter - that's how the mapper creates his map. The only thing that interests us is the product.

I suppose merging the polys makes it easier to work on an entire surface at once. But apart from mapper's convenience, I can't think of any other benefit. What, two less cycles wasted per second? Hah!

--
Also, UEd 2.1 and UEd 2.2 were fit for two different games, each with two different feature sets altogether. Even Epic's official releases of Unreal and UT are full of incompatibilities with each other; Unreal 227 (and by extension UEd 2.1) branches off Unreal, instead of following the path down UT lane, hence 227 instead of 527 or something.

I think both deserve to be plainly rewritten, or replaced.

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Re: DM-Skaun][ - Beta 1

Post by Feralidragon » Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:32 pm

There is a real in-game difference if you merge the polys of a model, and then intersect that model: you end up effectively with less polys for the same shape (which means less polys for the engine to render, which is very CPU-heavy in UE1).

Performance aside, like sektor mentions there's also a difference when it comes to lighting, the surface is lit up better (generally).
And I think less lightmaps are also generated as a result, reducing the map filesize, but don't quote me on that as I am not 100% sure (I never really checked, but it seems that 1 lightmap is generated for the entire surface if the polys are merged, whereas multiple lightmaps are generated for separated polys).

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Re: DM-Skaun][ - Beta 1

Post by sektor2111 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:24 pm

Even tutorials are recommending merging what is possible to be merged.

Why do you think I did it ? Because I could see those lines in game, Yes, exactly not only in Editor are visible, I'm using the same render by the way. To not forget that in 469b lines were fine thanks in their place giving me good reasons for merging all as much as possible...

Code: Select all

set Brush bSelected 1
Right click Polys... etc. just like that... Here might be recommended other deintersections for preventing mixing surfaces, and maybe more... even I think this feature can be implemented in MapGarbage but I need to figure merging commands... It might be easier, all in one click...
Jumping beacons have 520+ polys - only a single solid brush causing small HOMS which I could not solve due to complexity of said brush, these I think can be morphed into meshes or... changed. They are too complex this way... I'll take a look at options as long as I finished my job in the kitchen and now I'm back in Editor(s)...

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Re: DM-Skaun][ - Beta 1

Post by Gustavo6046 » Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:31 pm

Ahhhh, I see. Well, that's something that I didn't know about, funnily enough. Many thanks!

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Re: DM-Skaun][ - Beta 1

Post by sektor2111 » Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:03 pm

Not funny yet... swJumpads in the place where are placed, when Bot is trying to gain a closer item is getting kidnapped and thrown up. The other combination is... two way - WRONG, I see often loops when Pawn wants back to the base and base is throwing it up again looping a couple times...
The trip through 227 for destroying those reachSpecs is mandatory here... Oh... working again and... a lock-down is announced in area, less time for UT :facepalm: .
Lifts are going useable by any Pawn capable to walk, it's time to ruin R_Special - it's nothing special and... they can be One-Way because there are already jumpy paths as shortcuts over lifts, reachSpecs going down through lift are useless in this case... I'm afraid that for paths will be needed a bit more time for fine tuning...

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Pikko
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Re: DM-Skaun][ - Beta 1

Post by Pikko » Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:22 pm

Hi everyone!
Wow…
I’m glad that there still are experts to ask,
and thanks for all the comments. :D

I have to say I learn something every time.
:tu:

- Cheers -