CTF-NBK-NaliTemple-Dx2021

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[NBK]DxTrEm3Fx
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CTF-NBK-NaliTemple-Dx2021

Post by [NBK]DxTrEm3Fx » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:54 am

Thank you to everyone that help with my questions. This is the final version of this map. Or at least until somebody tells me there is an issue with it :loool: This map started in 2008 as a DM map and has seen several versions, most of which were never released. I have released a couple of versions of this layout in beta form. I hope it gets loaded to a server and people get to enjoy it.
https://dxfxhouse.com/maps/CTF-NBK-Nali ... Dx2021.zip
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OjitroC
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Re: CTF-NBK-NaliTemple-Dx2021

Post by OjitroC » Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:12 pm

Very nice map - liked the prevous versions and like this one as well!

So you managed to solve the problem with the birds as all three now appear and fly around - was it the VacuumZone? (As an aside, I didn't realise that pawns won't show up when pressing F5 in the CFT gametype).

Sektor's MapGarbage tool reports
Spoiler
Show
There's a few lights in the void plus
VoidCheck: MedBox0 looks placed into void.
VoidCheck: MedBox5 looks placed into void.

PlayerStarts per team are slightly unbalanced
StartingChecks: Map has 25 PlayerStart Actors for team 0.
StartingChecks: Map has 27 PlayerStart Actors for team 1.
(I think I'm right in saying that the maximum number of PlayerStarts should be 32).

The AlternatePaths are slightly unbalanced
CTFReport: For Team 0 = 4 pieces.
CTFReport: For Team 1 = 6 pieces.

Finally, on the ZoneInfos
ZoningChecker: ZoneInfo1 and ZoneInfo6 share the same zone
ZoningChecker: ZoneInfo1 and ZoneInfo12 share the same zone
ZoningChecker: ZoneInfo1 and ZoneInfo2 share the same zone
ZoningChecker: ZoneInfo6 and ZoneInfo12 share the same zone
ZoningChecker: ZoneInfo6 and ZoneInfo2 share the same zone
ZoningChecker: ZoneInfo12 and ZoneInfo2 share the same zone

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Re: CTF-NBK-NaliTemple-Dx2021

Post by sektor2111 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:40 pm

OjitroC wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:12 pm
I think I'm right in saying that the maximum number of PlayerStarts should be 32
Uumm, yes, True but I think in 2021 we can have some stuff for a double charge.
Red Team = 16 + 16 PlayerStarts
BlueTeam = 16 + 16 PlayerStarts
These are happening as follows:
Red 16 bEnabled = True 16 bEnabled = False - using whatever TAG for them
Blue 16 bEnabled = True 16 bEnabled = False - Using another TAG for them ( or even the same previous TAG )
Now we can load somewhere visible for mapper two StochasticTriggers or two TimedTriggers with bRepeating = True, firing these Events (or one for that single Event) matching the Tag of these "starts". They are about to be toggled and respawning spread all over the place. You can sum a total number of 64 PlayerStarts which can be ALL used for both teams, or else normal UT won't use more than 16, the rest having no purpose out of powerful tweaked servers/games.

#2 "Alternate Problem": Custom CTF games might be using X+Y PlayerStarts and then the "16" limitation goes only for the wreck stock CTFGame from UT'99 which can be mitigated according to previous solution. There can be used even a Dispatcher (or More) for going up to 128 Start Spots at random...

Edit: The rest are generic pathing problems pointed in X posts: a bit too overcrowded, impossible translocation or impossible navigation in isolated areas, no reachspecs heading to Redeemer platform, not so many AlternatePaths through water - just nodes, maybe other tiny small issues.

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[NBK]DxTrEm3Fx
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Re: CTF-NBK-NaliTemple-Dx2021

Post by [NBK]DxTrEm3Fx » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:25 am

OjitroC wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:12 pm
Very nice map - liked the prevous versions and like this one as well!

So you managed to solve the problem with the birds as all three now appear and fly around - was it the VacuumZone? (As an aside, I didn't realise that pawns won't show up when pressing F5 in the CFT gametype).

Sektor's MapGarbage tool reports
Spoiler
Show
There's a few lights in the void plus
VoidCheck: MedBox0 looks placed into void.
VoidCheck: MedBox5 looks placed into void.

PlayerStarts per team are slightly unbalanced
StartingChecks: Map has 25 PlayerStart Actors for team 0.
StartingChecks: Map has 27 PlayerStart Actors for team 1.
(I think I'm right in saying that the maximum number of PlayerStarts should be 32).

The AlternatePaths are slightly unbalanced
CTFReport: For Team 0 = 4 pieces.
CTFReport: For Team 1 = 6 pieces.

Finally, on the ZoneInfos
ZoningChecker: ZoneInfo1 and ZoneInfo6 share the same zone
ZoningChecker: ZoneInfo1 and ZoneInfo12 share the same zone
ZoningChecker: ZoneInfo1 and ZoneInfo2 share the same zone
ZoningChecker: ZoneInfo6 and ZoneInfo12 share the same zone
ZoningChecker: ZoneInfo6 and ZoneInfo2 share the same zone
ZoningChecker: ZoneInfo12 and ZoneInfo2 share the same zone
No, I didn't do anything with the birds. Every time I play the game I only see the bird in the blue base. What are you using to check all of that information? I will have to get it all fixed.
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Re: CTF-NBK-NaliTemple-Dx2021

Post by [NBK]DxTrEm3Fx » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:32 am

MED boxes in void deleted.
We now have 16 Blue and 16 red player starts.
APs have been balanced 4 blue and 4 red
Deleted all extra zoneInfos.
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Re: CTF-NBK-NaliTemple-Dx2021

Post by OjitroC » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:49 am

[NBK]DxTrEm3Fx wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:25 am
What are you using to check all of that information?
Sektor's MapGarbage tool - very useful, it also gives information on the pathing plus lots of other useful features for mappers. It can be obtained from the HoF website here viewtopic.php?f=34&t=502#p3365. It's discussed on this forum in this thread 124402#p123374.

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Re: CTF-NBK-NaliTemple-Dx2021

Post by [NBK]DxTrEm3Fx » Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:39 am

I've added the MapGarbage.u to my system folder and the .bmp to the editorres folder. When I fire up the editor the Glass/TrashCan Icon doesn't show up. Does this work with the 469 patch?
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Re: CTF-NBK-NaliTemple-Dx2021

Post by [NBK]DxTrEm3Fx » Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:24 am

https://youtu.be/XYoYXbrhJ6g
Transloc destination
Last edited by [NBK]DxTrEm3Fx on Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CTF-NBK-NaliTemple-Dx2021

Post by [NBK]DxTrEm3Fx » Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:34 am

https://youtu.be/JANJSSVwTu4
Transloc destination
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Re: CTF-NBK-NaliTemple-Dx2021

Post by sektor2111 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:56 am

You can read rules about penta-posting during 24 hours...
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=149#p988 rule #8.

In cases where LiftExit heads to a TranslocDest and way back is needed and is too long causing a jumping failure it's recommended TranslocStart instead of LiftExit - perhaps from UDamage back to that higher spot - path is there but logically harder to follow without a Translocator - there is no problem if Pawn don't need to return. Then light me about path from LiftExit18 to TranslocDest2 (not the correct routes from videos) - if one of them it's deeply in water - water slows down projectiles causing a failure, I wasn't talking about normal usable paths. Actually if any Bot has been boosted in water in a combat situation it won't have too many options for moving out of water (in stock CTFGame).
Nodes from water should be under Water Surface and not in air for preventing any potential problem, else the platform with Redeemer might be too high causing ONE WAY paths from redeemer to water and nothing back on Platform and so there are no logically connected paths heading at Redeemer. I think here must be tested a combo or else Redeemer won't be a navigable goal.
[NBK]DxTrEm3Fx wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:39 am
I've added the MapGarbage.u to my system folder and the .bmp to the editorres folder. When I fire up the editor the Glass/TrashCan Icon doesn't show up. Does this work with the 469 patch?
It works as far as I know, but it does nothing if you don't select any option to do, any builder added in Editor must be defined in INI as described in INFO Document or else it won't show up itself from nowhere if it's not defined for usage.

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Re: CTF-NBK-NaliTemple-Dx2021

Post by EvilGrins » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:55 am

OjitroC wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:12 pm
I didn't realise that pawns won't show up when pressing F5 in the CFT gametype
That's true of most team games.
http://unreal-games.livejournal.com/
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medor wrote:Replace Skaarj with EvilGrins :mrgreen:
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Re: CTF-NBK-NaliTemple-Dx2021

Post by sektor2111 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:08 pm

Let's look a little bit what can be somehow adjusted...
Multiple_NTDx.PNG
Going out of water is doable out of Translocator so this is no longer mandatory here.
And the paths around Redeemer
NormalPaths_NTDx.PNG
These have been done using some pre-pathing commands from MapGarbage, moving nodes into the right height positions, and building paths using original UT Script from Editor - I think I'm not recommending XC builder here as long as it does impossible paths (out of water in those locations it's NOT POSSIBLE - I'm sorry, Higor - I'm talking about these FAKE routes for ages...)

These are tests done because of my curiosity so map can be definitely improved.
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Re: CTF-NBK-NaliTemple-Dx2021

Post by [NBK]DxTrEm3Fx » Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:02 pm

I'm not a code writer in any way. When I started mapping in 99, we didn't have tools like this at our disposal. We never cared too much about what the stupid bots were doing. We never played games like MH or UTDMS or UTDMT. We played mostly InstaGib DM and Instagib CTF. Our servers were filled with Humans, and there wasn't much need to care about the bots and what they were doing. We cared about the map looking good and did it play well for the players, not the bots. Make sure brushes were on the grid and no HOM going on inside the maps. We played giant maps that look like your Livingroom, Bedroom, Garage, and you name it, we made it. I understand if you play MH or UTDMS, or UTDMT, you need to make the maps work correctly with the AI Navigation. And I was able to find the EditPackages line in my UTini and added the needed command line, EditPackages=MapGarbage. The MapGarbage tool is a lot to take in and figure out how it works. There is a ton of information in the read me, and not sure that I understand all of it and how it works. I will have to go through it the best I can and figure out how it works. Thanks for all of your input and your help. It is much appreciated.
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Re: CTF-NBK-NaliTemple-Dx2021

Post by sektor2111 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:09 am

Ahem, it's not always about scripting but... because in the past I failed things when I worked through Editor I took a decision inspired from MapPurger by Gizzy but which has less options. What is about ? Instead to looking at each actor known with possible issues, a Builder does a few basic checks more quickly and reporting them in logs - exactly, even my previous map as Extra-Contest demo has some tiny bugs because... I did not have a good checker, making me a bit sad. All these years I did not see anyone taking wheel for basic checks in stock and new maps using a sort of builder plugin and revealing when a CTF map has various problems or another type of map. For MonsterHunt story is way too long...
When I got more experience in pathing I figured that I cannot do everything by painting bytes and data and then I wrote certain functions fired using a few mouse clicks. These can be hard to figure, but for me are a need. You can use basics, advanced options are maybe harder, you can stick with simple options. Advanced options like disconnecting a Node from Navigation chain is a bit complex for doing this in Editor on user demand and has a few logic steps, those are for advanced users knowing what is about, those are things at border between UScript and C++ not very needed by all mappers but good for those which want more than plain mapping, of course, I could add more options but I need time to figure things and to understand more about editing assets. In other hand a heavy loaded builder with 200 options probably is a No Go and I think I'm slowly reaching to a final point with that thingy.

Back to map and... helped by MapGarbage. Toying around...
- setting up balanced 24 Playerstarts for each team 12 active 12 inactive and 48 Total PlayerStarts;
- setting up a tag "Togglers";
- adding a StochasticTrigger (stock actor) with Event 0 "Togglers" - Object Initialstate = AlwaysActive;
- Adding a SpecialEvent delegated with a sound Played when event "Togglers" is fired up, it's about RespawnSound from Botpack;
- Timer for StochasticTrigger is around 50 seconds and chance 0.9 = 90%;
Stage: When game is started 12 PlayerStarts for each team are available. When Trigger is firing an event, a strong respawn sound can be noticed and PlayerStarts are changed - a second row of 12 PlayerStarts it's now active for each team. This way Starting spots are a bit more randomized and USED. These are stock so far. Reported:

Code: Select all

StartingChecks: Map has 24 PlayerStart Actors for team 0.
Settings: 12 are Disabled and 12 are Enabled.
StartingChecks: Map has 24 PlayerStart Actors for team 1.
Settings: 12 are Disabled and 12 are Enabled.
MapGarbage (not the last version released) has checked how many Starts are active and inactive for being well balanced. So far it's all good with less than 3000 reachSpecs aka Paths.

I think this good looking map will have some success everywhere Off-Line and On-Line with or without Bots. I'm still thinking... In game it looks impressive and it feels CTFGame.

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Re: CTF-NBK-NaliTemple-Dx2021

Post by [NBK]DxTrEm3Fx » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:20 pm

So yesterday after work I was messing around with the MapGarbage tool. I used bRemoveNavNetwork and it would not remove all of the path nodes. I'm not sure if it's supposed to remove all of the Path Nodes or not. So I selected the remaining path nodes and deleted them all. Then I tried to use bBuildNavNetwork and it would not install any path nodes. Not sure if I'm doing something wrong or what. But I wanted to see if it would create a new NavNetwork and it would not. Also, I used bScanTeamStarts and bScanCTFAltPaths and now I cannot figure out how to get rid of the replacement textures that MG assigns to the player starts and alt path icons.
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