CTF-Ditcher - need help testing

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adib
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CTF-Ditcher - need help testing

Post by adib » Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:07 am

Hi all,

Quake mapper, new to UT99 here \o/

What goes attached here is the blockout of my first UT99 CTF level, without any art or even proper lighting, but fully functional as far as I could test.

I most likely made mistakes and/or things could be done better. So I came for advice from UT99 veteran mappers :D For example, I already learned that stock UT99 kicker has glitches and they are indeed not working so well in this map, but I could't find a solution. I read about custom jumppad classes, but wouldn´t that force me to deliver the script along with the map, requiring installation instructions, etc?

So, what is right and wrong about my level, items, navigation points, paths... ? Any feedback would be much appreciated.

EDIT: This is just a blockout (or "greybox"), the level won't look bland, untextured and unlit like this.
EDIT: I updated the level in 09/2 correcting problems commented here and improving the level itself. Red base site was poor and funneling bots in a narrow passage, surprisingly making it harder for the red team to defend their base. The space is now expanded and more interesting.

Thanks!

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Que
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Re: CTF-Ditcher - need help testing

Post by Que » Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:29 am

this maybe of help for kickers/jumppads.
http://extremew00t.com/jumppad_tutorial.htm
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Re: CTF-Ditcher - need help testing

Post by adib » Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:35 am

Thanks, yep, I read about this one. So, to distribute my level I have to make a zip with the .u script included, all in the right folder structure?

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Re: CTF-Ditcher - need help testing

Post by Que » Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:06 am

just add SWJumpPad.u to your final .zip file i think.
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Re: CTF-Ditcher - need help testing

Post by FraGnBraG » Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:10 am

interesting looking map. Have a look at ctf-xmc-alphawoot in the editor - look at how swjumpad, SmartAlternatePath are used. Also, Lift setups, Jumpspots, pathodes and placements are set up for optimal BotPlay. Basically everything you need for proper UT CTF. Note that Swjumpad and SmartAlternatePath actors are embedded in the map, in MyLevel. If you are unfamiliar with how to use MyLevel, I'm sure the techniques for embedding things in the map have been discussed in various threads on this site. If you can't find anything, ask, and you'll get help for sure...
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Re: CTF-Ditcher - need help testing

Post by EvilGrins » Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:26 am

Overall, looks great. A litle bland with the same texture on virtually every surface but I'm assuming you're going to work on that and this is just for presentation purposes. I like that it's a large map with twisting paths, makes for more fun both giving lots of running room and places to duck behind as snipers are evil.
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That said, there's a couple issues.

I tend to test maps with bots, for bot-pathing tests... and I play offline more than I play online.

1. The jump-pads only bounce upwards, which makes sense but they usually need to bounce up and a little bit forward because otherwise bots will get on them and just bounce up and down forever until someone shoots them or someone else bounces up and knocks them out of the way.

2. 1 of UT's default textures, which you see when mapping, is this white mold pattern looking thing...
Image
...and on both of your lifts, that's all there is. I'm guessing texture didn't stick because the lift moves?

3. Pathing for the lifts could use some work:
Image
Bots get to the top and then jump right back into the flag area. Usually after 2 or 3 times of doing this, they eventually get out of that repeat pattern... if someone hasn't killed them already.

Other than those, though, nice 1st map.
Image

Did another map inspire you for this? Aspects of this map remind me of another one, but I'm blanking on the name.
http://unreal-games.livejournal.com/
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medor wrote:Replace Skaarj with EvilGrins :mrgreen:
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Re: CTF-Ditcher - need help testing

Post by sektor2111 » Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:14 am

Okay, let me see... Some of you those OLD UT mappers can take a look at this map how it's done by a new guy - I'm talking about combos especially which have ZERO ISSUES in this map. However... there is a fact to be taken in account:

Code: Select all

CTFReport: --- Reporting AlternatePaths setup: ---
CTFReport: For Team 0 = 24 pieces.
CTFReport: For Team 1 = 0 pieces.
Blue Team should be balanced - but this mistake is acceptable. Usually such things can be patched even in run-time in plain UT without extra-tools.

Let's talk/discuss about kickers.

Kicker usually is not seen by Bot as part of his routes because is not a navigation point linked with A.I. (Artificial Intelligence) paths. However stock map CTF-Coret shows a bit of "how to". There is no rule granted by US Government that you cannot have TWO kickers, a top kicker addressing Bot classes will prevent looping in kicker area while the bottom one is a plain main kicker following a small velocity on X Y not only on Z axis for making sure that velocity has a direction out of the same landing place in kicker's radius. Kicker is kidnapping/hijacking velocity - you can imagine that Bot thrown is not really understanding what's happening and it will resume navigation as soon as possible after landing. Long falls makes it to adjust a bit his fall to a closer navigation point - it's why in kicker's radius we might not want Navigation points because it might be used as fallback behind a jumping failure and looping there 2 weeks or more.
You can download image below or looking at it with zooming, if in forum it do looks too small.
Kicker_Sample.PNG
In other hand importing swJumpad doesn't need "instructions" for players, there is nothing else than using map normally. SwJumpPad is a Navigation point recognized as path similar to teleporters because it is a Teleporter after all. Settings... well... look for "Woot" maps at "unrealarchive.org" especially those by Derdak2Rot and other good mappers. They are more relevant than 1000 phrases written in "tutorials". I can recall even maps by others, like"CTF-300k-w00tious" I don't know how many can be seen at unrealarchive.org
https://unrealarchive.org/mappacks/unre ... 262d0.html
but maybe elsewhere.

Edit: The rest is... a bit more texturing if possible, lightning spots, etc.
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Re: CTF-Ditcher - need help testing

Post by OjitroC » Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:15 pm

Excellent first UT map - your Quake mapping experience certainly shows in the design, layout and construction of the map. Are you going to use Quake textures?

A few things reported by sektor's MapGarbage tool
Spoiler
Show
UnReachableNodes: PathNode51 looks much over ground for normal Human Size, check it.
UnReachableNodes: PathNode52 looks much over ground for normal Human Size, check it.
UnReachableNodes: PathNode53 looks much over ground for normal Human Size, check it.
UnReachableNodes: LiftExit45 looks much over ground for normal Human Size, check it.
UnReachableNodes: LiftExit49 looks much over ground for normal Human Size, check it.

LiftFound: LiftCenter0 seems linked at Mover Mover7
QuestioningState: Mover Mover7 is BumpOpenTimed like a door not like a lift. Recommending StandOpenTimed ?
PotentialLiftFound: LiftCenter1 has a nearby Mover Mover3, but is not connected with it. Check if this is wrong.

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Re: CTF-Ditcher - need help testing

Post by adib » Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:24 pm

Looks like I met the right community. Really great advice here. Thank you all for the feedback. Gonna check all these references. As for the lack of texturing, light and overall blandness, level is still in blockout phase. It's part of the process, I rather make it play right first, specially for a game mode I don't master yet.
OjitroC wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:15 pm
Excellent first UT map - your Quake mapping experience certainly shows in the design, layout and construction of the map. Are you going to use Quake textures?
Thanks! Glad you're liking it. I intend to use my own custom textures overall, but have been finding some great ones in stock UT too. So probably a mix.
Last edited by adib on Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: CTF-Ditcher - need help testing

Post by sektor2111 » Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:29 pm

Eh, there is water in that area, nodes should be indeed at normal height from the ground not from water surface and some of those nearby items can be deleted reducing paths processing, but... even in current state it can be patched.

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Re: CTF-Ditcher - need help testing

Post by OjitroC » Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:22 pm

Just to follow up EG's point about the lifts, here's AeonFlux running in place on one of them (not sure which) - basically, she got stuck there.
Ditcher.jpg
adib wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:24 pm
I intend to use my own custom textures overall, but have been finding some great ones in stock UT too. So probably a mix.
It's up to you obviously but if you want something really distinctive, then go for your custom textures - stock UT texures have been used an awful lot.

The placing of weapons has presumably been done in line with how you want the map to play - I'm not an expert on weapon placement in CTF maps but, looking in the editor, they are a little on the light side (only one of each UT weapon in the map) and not really close to PlayerStarts for example - then again I'm not sure how desirable it is that they should be. Armor is also a little light, just thigh pads.
sektor2111 wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:29 pm
... some of those nearby items can be deleted reducing paths processing, but... even in current state it can be patched.
Presumably move some of those items as the weapons there are the only ones ot their type in the map.

The map can be patched but only by those who know how to do that and that's only a (very) small minority of the people likely to play it, especially off-line.
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Re: CTF-Ditcher - need help testing

Post by EvilGrins » Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:23 pm

OjitroC wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:22 pm
Just to follow up EG's point about the lifts, here's AeonFlux running in place on one of them (not sure which) - basically, she got stuck there.
Yeah, noticed that too but figured if pathing got fixed for lifts like I suggested that would get fixed as well... I think the issue with what I pointed out is related.

Although, this isn't uncommon to a lot of maps. It's like how bots run to a door but it closes as they're approaching it. Something about the timing will get the bot running at the door continuously even though its closed and the bot is too close to trip the sensor for the door to open again.
http://unreal-games.livejournal.com/
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Re: CTF-Ditcher - need help testing

Post by sektor2111 » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:50 pm

EvilGrins wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:23 pm
Although, this isn't uncommon to a lot of maps. It's like how bots run to a door but it closes as they're approaching it. Something about the timing will get the bot running at the door continuously even though its closed and the bot is too close to trip the sensor for the door to open again.
This is mapper problem, usually such triggered things would need some setup at triggering timers but nobody is bothering to setup triggers correctly and later Bot fails, it's pushing a door or waiting a lift which won't move or similar situations.
OjitroC wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:22 pm
.. here's AeonFlux running in place on one of them (not sure which) - basically, she got stuck there.
It's that one from your previous spoiler.

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Re: CTF-Ditcher - need help testing

Post by OjitroC » Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:18 pm

sektor2111 wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:50 pm
OjitroC wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:22 pm
.. here's AeonFlux running in place on one of them (not sure which) - basically, she got stuck there.
It's that one from your previous spoiler.
That's Mover 7 BumpOpenTImed? A door as a lift that won't open?

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Re: CTF-Ditcher - need help testing

Post by adib » Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:44 pm

EvilGrins wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:26 am
Did another map inspire you for this? Aspects of this map remind me of another one, but I'm blanking on the name.
Actually I started from the layout I made for a Quake racing mod that was being developed by a friend, but was never released. A race track to run on foot with weapons is halfway CTF :D

Now I'm gonna take care of more gross errors you guys pointed like lifts and paths too high and then fix the jumpers and then, yes, add more weaponry, armor and health (and that will probably involve some geometry changes too).

I'll keep this thread updated :tu:

EDIT: Hey sektor2111, the double-kicker trick seem to have solved my problem. I read that stock kickers have a glitch that randomly kick with twice the speed when the pawn first touch it. That was happening every time and the bots were jumping twice every time as a result. I checked CTF-Coret and didn't find anything wrong with my setup. But a second kicker seems to work.
Last edited by adib on Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:02 am, edited 2 times in total.