What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

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TexasGtar
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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by TexasGtar » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:36 pm

papercoffee wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:40 pm
TexasGtar wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:56 pm
You are right. I think they have to be pointing the same way and that also includes the flip of the sheet. Both have to be flipped the same. Portal zones are difficult to get working. I can agree with that.
Yes and no ...you can turn them into different directions to produce something like this.
Image
But you have to be very accurate or else the map Ass-plodes.

Which it did in that case.
But maybe I have an idea now to fix this ...hm need to look into it.
lol @ ass-plodes
I did a map which was basically 3 boxes, one on top of the other. Blue base in 1 box, red base in the other box, middle area in middle box. Then I made the floors glass where you could see through and arranged the portals where you could see what was happening in the middle box before leaving the base boxes. It was a pretty cool effect and was actually a pretty fun map to play too. I can't remember what that one was called. I'll have to go look and find out what I named that one and I'll post and edit when I figure out which one it was.

I remember though that if I didn't have the zone sheets flipped the right way, HOM's everywhere...lol ass-plodes. I eventually got it working and I do play that one from time to time because it is a lot of fun and a fast paced CTF map

That is kind of a trippy effect you have in the image. Not sure exactly what I amlooking at but it looks sort of warped. Might be a cool effect to play around with , to be sure.

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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by papercoffee » Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:55 am

TexasGtar wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:36 pm
That is kind of a trippy effect you have in the image. Not sure exactly what I amlooking at but it looks sort of warped. Might be a cool effect to play around with , to be sure.
It's this project here viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13015&p=115380

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TexasGtar
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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by TexasGtar » Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:39 am

papercoffee wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:55 am
TexasGtar wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:36 pm
That is kind of a trippy effect you have in the image. Not sure exactly what I amlooking at but it looks sort of warped. Might be a cool effect to play around with , to be sure.
It's this project here viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13015&p=115380
Cool idea. I'm guessing that you never got it to work just yet. Didn't see a link.
I think I understand what you are trying to achieve though better. Way above my paygrade to figure that out. I can see the difficulty of making the floor work in a warp everywhere.
I hope you can get it to work someday. It's a very cool concept!

my warp zone map was CTF-300k-GobbleGobble. Defending was cool because you could see the enemy coming through the floor or ceiling before they got to you.
It was in the 2008 Blito3 300K mappack.

====================================
On a side note that monster hunt map the folks helped me on here was an issue when I was trying to make it into a single player adventure of rescuing the nali priest. The problem was if you played with bots, they would shoot the nali even though the point was to rescue the nali and help him escape. Never figured out how to keep the bots from shooting the nali as soon as you released him. Still works as a single person adventure, but yeah, that kinda frustrated me in that it wouldn't do what I intended. lol Sometimes the sidetracks turn out okay though.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@FNB - I remember that contact 3 ring map. I think I remember it spinning and it was really very cool. Sucks you had to remove the moving aspect but yeah, it was a nice effect.

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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by FraGnBraG » Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:51 am

well I've had a number of "adventures in mapping" in my time - this one in particular was no small struggle :P it is not CSG (or lighting, audio, artwork, pathing) for the faint of heart! It also features a mass of multi-skyzones that provided the perspective "smoke and mirrors" of running around inside a massive borg cube. Perhaps less known, the major areas were at various times connected with fast movers, then gravity zoom zones, then Warpzones, then eventually, the teleporter effects. Imagine a single map project having 5 gigs of files - a lot of experimenting. The final project amounts to about a 1 gig with a lot of zipfiles.
dom_fnb_borg08.jpg
This took a huge amount of hours to realize... and that starship turned out so well, I had to created a second map (ctf-fnb-TrekWoot) so you could actually run around on it :P

@hellkeeper - the final release of the warpcore map has brushes in it, not movers. The movers were replaced. The early beta versions of the map had mover rings -- they looked like this:
ctf-(beta)fnb-warpcore.jpg
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-=FraGnBraG Level Design=- ***UPDATED! even works on your phone!***

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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by sektor2111 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:07 am

TexasGtar wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:39 am
The problem was if you played with bots, they would shoot the nali even though the point was to rescue the nali and help him escape. Never figured out how to keep the bots from shooting the nali as soon as you released him.
That's "creativity" problem (mapper's more exactly) not a mapping problem. Everyone knows what are doing Bots in original MonsterHunt - not in other advanced MonsterHunt versions. In original, Nali was never friend of them and neither cows or their kids or those "orphan kids" dropped in maps. So this problem doesn't even exists in other superior versions... Mapper should follow normal game controller rules not its own rules, these are game-type specific issues based on the lack of coding, not really mapping issues.

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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by TexasGtar » Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:46 am

sektor2111 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:07 am
TexasGtar wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:39 am
The problem was if you played with bots, they would shoot the nali even though the point was to rescue the nali and help him escape. Never figured out how to keep the bots from shooting the nali as soon as you released him.
That's "creativity" problem (mapper's more exactly) not a mapping problem. Everyone knows what are doing Bots in original MonsterHunt - not in other advanced MonsterHunt versions. In original, Nali was never friend of them and neither cows or their kids or those "orphan kids" dropped in maps. So this problem doesn't even exists in other superior versions... Mapper should follow normal game controller rules not its own rules, these are game-type specific issues based on the lack of coding, not really mapping issues.
I can't argue with that logic. I wonder what that "make nali friendly" actor was for if at some point it wasn't an idea that they should be on another level than regular monsters.
No matter. You are right. It's not a mapper problem. Still fits the title of the thread though in my opinion. Something hard that never got resolved.

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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by Buggie » Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:24 am

https://github.com/Slipyx/UT99/blob/f2e ... t.uc#L1972

Code: Select all

function eAttitude AttitudeTo(Pawn Other)
{
	local byte result;

	if ( Level.Game.IsA('DeathMatchPlus') )
	{
		result = DeathMatchPlus(Level.Game).AssessBotAttitude(self, Other);
		Switch (result)
		{
			case 0: return ATTITUDE_Fear;
			case 1: return ATTITUDE_Hate;
			case 2: return ATTITUDE_Ignore;
			case 3: return ATTITUDE_Friendly;
		}
	}

	if ( Level.Game.bTeamGame && (PlayerReplicationInfo.Team == Other.PlayerReplicationInfo.Team) )
		return ATTITUDE_Friendly; //teammate

	return ATTITUDE_Hate;
}
Unfortunately most game types not use this. Even MH not override it.
So used standard code:
https://github.com/Slipyx/UT99/blob/f2e ... us.uc#L747

Code: Select all

function byte AssessBotAttitude(Bot aBot, Pawn Other)
{
	if ( (Other.bIsPlayer && (aBot.PlayerReplicationInfo.Team == Other.PlayerReplicationInfo.Team))
		|| (Other.IsA('TeamCannon')
			&& (StationaryPawn(Other).SameTeamAs(aBot.PlayerReplicationInfo.Team))) )
		return 3;
	else
		return Super.AssessBotAttitude(aBot, Other);
}
or even:
https://github.com/Slipyx/UT99/blob/f2e ... s.uc#L1078

Code: Select all

function byte AssessBotAttitude(Bot aBot, Pawn Other)
{
	local float skillmod;

	if ( bNoviceMode )
		skillmod = 0.3;
	else
		skillmod = 0.2 - aBot.skill * 0.06;
	if ( aBot.bKamikaze )
		return 1;
	else if ( Other.IsA('TeamCannon') 
		|| (aBot.RelativeStrength(Other) > aBot.Aggressiveness + skillmod) )
		return 0;
	else
		return 1;
}
If MH ovveride this with return 3, when Other is Nali, then Bots not attack them.

--- EDIT ---

Unfortunately network code mostly broken for any reasonable use on SP or MH maps:
https://github.com/OldUnreal/UnrealTour ... issues/300

So bots mostly useless on most maps, except small and highly tested like CTF or DM.

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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by Eternity » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:24 am

Buggie wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:24 am
So bots mostly useless on most maps, except small and highly tested like CTF or DM.
Yes, but it is possible to implement the fixes that make Bot at least less useless on these maps...
With such fixes added to the GameType, original Bot's scripts work surprisingly good, even on the maps with no paths.
There are many interesting and not yet implemented ideas in this direction.... (need time to do this, some day later, maybe...)

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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by Buggie » Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:37 pm

Eternity wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:24 am
work surprisingly good
I very doubt about that if network patching not work, because this stuff work only from native side (speed and not all things exposed to uscript).
Without that bot usually stuck in respawn area and don't able follow you. Maybe only if see you, but not sure even about that.

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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by sektor2111 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:36 pm

#1 Bot's attitude can be written depending on game needs - and it works - it's not the same story for monsters (except properly adjusted stock) - or add-ons;
I don't get what is about those stock codes - those are not for MonsterHunt, my MH uses another function, that's why game-type has Bot rules.

Code: Select all

function byte AssessBotAttitude(Bot aBot, Pawn Other)	//Added
{
	local name MState;

	MState=Other.GetStateName();

	if (!ValidSight(Other,aBot) || MState == 'Sitting')
		return 2;
	else if ( ValidSight(Other,aBot) && MState != 'Sitting') //No more bullshit through Movers
	{
		if ( ( Other.bIsPlayer && Other.PlayerReplicationInfo != None && Other.PlayerReplicationInfo.Team == aBot.PlayerReplicationInfo.Team )
			|| Other.IsA('Nali') || Other.IsA('Cow') )
			return 3;
		if ( Other.IsA('TeamCannon') && TeamCannon(Other).MyTeam==0 )
			return 3;
		if ( !Other.bIsPlayer && Other.CollisionHeight < 75 )
			return 1;
		if ( !Other.bIsPlayer && Other.CollisionHeight >= 75 )
			return 0;
	}
	else return super(DeathMatchPlus).AssessBotAttitude(aBot, Other);
}
Easy huh ? Why I would use TeamGamePlus as base when this is more like a Monster Assault not really a team game ?

#2 There is in forum a sample map (even two if I'm thinking well) with Bot Support WITHOUT PathNodes more exactly without paths lines covering all map - read this well - no, they won't cover player, but they are assaulting monsters and even finishing map... doesn't matter areas without paths;

#3 The hardest thing to me remains a badly messed geometry, the rest means simple mapping RULES - easy to follow and trying to not reinvent the wheel.

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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by mister_prophet » Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:06 am

TexasGtar wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:46 am
I wonder what that "make nali friendly" actor was for if at some point it wasn't an idea that they should be on another level than regular monsters.
That's an actor from Unreal that just happens to be included with the UT codebase. It was intended for if the player shot a friendly Nali in the campaign. If you accidently (or intentionally) hurt a Nali, ALL the Nali in a single map would be frightened of you. Presumably triggering one of those would revert them to normal. Not that I've actually seen too many people use it outside of those strict conditions. As for Bots being hostile to Nali, there could be some design methods to help prevent that. I'm not sure what your level looks like or how you did the event, but perhaps there is a way to "block" the bots from actually seeing the Nali themselves. It's been awhile since I made a UT99 map and I don't know what pawn changes were made in 469 yet, but maybe an ICH? Don't quite remember if bots can see through them.

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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by Diego_HoF » Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:30 am

To start without EXP and learning without using guides

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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by Swanky » Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:26 am

I find it harder and harder to come up with interesting layouts that feel liks they haven't been done to death. Of course, after twenty some years and tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of maps later, this is going to be a challenge in itself.
However, I don't really want to do something that I've done before; that is one of the reasons why most of my last maps had hefty z-axis and multiple levels to flow around. It makes the layouting progress that much harder.

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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by Hellkeeper » Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:42 pm

Swanky wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:26 am
I find it harder and harder to come up with interesting layouts that feel liks they haven't been done to death. Of course, after twenty some years and tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of maps later, this is going to be a challenge in itself.
I feel this. Back in the early 2010s, everything I tried to make ended up feeling like this map or that one, or a mix of this and that or is clearly "Map x but with a different floorplan".
After a while I learned to embrace it and I just decided to go in thinking "I want to make a map that feels like X" or "A map that is inspired by this screenshot of X but with one floor above", etc. Once you let go, you end up making really original stuff out of things that you feel like you copied everywhere and nobody but me sees the similarity. It really helps me get in new maps relaxed and optimistic whereas I used to start map feeling miserable and only enjoying the last steps when it had evolved into something more personnal. :)
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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by Red_Fist » Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:29 pm

Converting Quake 1 maps to one brush BSP rips ( including the original mover brushes and sounds and animated buttons textures ), with Quake 1 running in the background alt tabbing so the textures that I imported and make the lighting to look almost exactly the same as possible.

To find out after a few maps later I needed to up-size the BSP to match UT collision, and given map, trying to force bots to navigate. I aligned massive amounts of textures, every friggen surface that is viewable, un-merged from the original BSP map because the BSP wall would be the same wall on the other side of the maps. And drilling holes in walls to get rid of extra zones, from the rip.

I had to convert the BSP to T3d, huge amount of work.

Then all I got from Nalicity was "it's a new engine why not improve the way it looks" WASN'T the reason for making them in the first place, I wanted it to look like Quake 1.

I still have one more to go, the lava pool in the center, one of the boss levels. I have it done but it was too small size, it works but is too cramped for UT. And is a really good map for DM.

Then I did a few for UT2004.

By doing that it teaches you a lot.
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