What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

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TexasGtar
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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by TexasGtar » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:07 am

mister_prophet wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:06 am
TexasGtar wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:46 am
I wonder what that "make nali friendly" actor was for if at some point it wasn't an idea that they should be on another level than regular monsters.
That's an actor from Unreal that just happens to be included with the UT codebase. It was intended for if the player shot a friendly Nali in the campaign. If you accidently (or intentionally) hurt a Nali, ALL the Nali in a single map would be frightened of you. Presumably triggering one of those would revert them to normal. Not that I've actually seen too many people use it outside of those strict conditions. As for Bots being hostile to Nali, there could be some design methods to help prevent that. I'm not sure what your level looks like or how you did the event, but perhaps there is a way to "block" the bots from actually seeing the Nali themselves. It's been awhile since I made a UT99 map and I don't know what pawn changes were made in 469 yet, but maybe an ICH? Don't quite remember if bots can see through them.
Thanks for the good info!!

I tried to get it to work but that actor never seemed to do anything.
When I planned the idea out I used Nali because they seemed like the obvious choice, maybe they were the friendliest creature to use since they didn't attack you on site. I never played the original unreal until much later and that was a long time ago so I don't know much about the monsters and that first game. I just thought it would be a cool idea to rescue a nali from a prison, and then during the rescue you yourself were captured, so the mission was to free yourself and then find and rescue the nali. I get that the monster hunt gametype had a lot to do with bots attacking any creatures. I just never thought of the nali as anything that needed attacking, like a cow or a rabbit. So I was a bit surprised when the bots attacked the nali as soon as he was released from his cell. lol I was like, okay, that's fresh.

Your avatar is scaring me. lol

Anyway, if you are interested in saving the nali map it's development thread is here the map:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14024&p=121164#p121164

And the no nali map is here where you just escape yourself and teammates.:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14053&p=121587#p121587

Not sure if the downloads are still there or not. If you want to try it out and they are expired, let me know and I can reupload the zip file somewhere.

Buggie
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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by Buggie » Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:33 am

https://github.com/Slipyx/UT99/blob/f2e ... riendly.uc

Code: Select all

//=============================================================================
// MakeNaliFriendly
//  makes all fearful Nali friendly again.
// Use this when player "helps" nali, to make up for earlier killing one
// "accidentally"
//=============================================================================
It must be target as some trigger.

But strictly say it is not help much. Because when Nali fearful, they wandering for avoid players, forget their orders and alarm tags.

So make them friendly again not solve broken map sequence. Yes, Nali not fear you. No, they not do their job. Just stay still and breadth. Useless Nali.
Last edited by Buggie on Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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sektor2111
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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by sektor2111 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:47 am

Scenario required for MonsterHunt:

As stage #1 - Forget Nali - completely.
For a creative stage called "Saving Nali" it's recommended a custom decoration doing some animations sequences (attached even to an invisible tiny Mover or such), getting vanished using a sort of teleportation and waiting player elsewhere in End Area or whatever stage (there can be another such Decoration). Bot won't shoot a decoration just like that, and certain animation sequences once done will never fail, so you don't even need any Nali, you need a few MyLevel things - advanced mapping with other words. Fake Nali won't start chickening and yelling around but doing its job getting over any evil player attempting to ruin map's purpose and design. Since 200x years, more people were complaining about a Bot vs Nali thing which cannot be solved itself, the bug is not auto-fixed by time or by Windows 10 with 16 CORE CPU and 32GB of RAM - it's stupid, seriously - and Nali will fail to work if player goes crazy, you can forget this way because it will the mostly go nowhere in populated servers - there are all sort of players, don't count on them. I have to admit that creating these stages are having a bit of difficulty and requires time.

As #2 - Custom Nali immune at attacks (designed for Non-Bots servers) and continuing to do the mission even if evils are bugging him.

As #3 - Might be even a FlockPawn which usually Bot is not attacking and neither monsters... more fascinating is if this pawn uses ZERO health and collision removed - but visible - perhaps this one won't navigate alarms as I recall (it might need another special codes). I'll bet that other A.I. side won't take it in account and it won't be affected by weaponry.

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Barbie
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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by Barbie » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:53 am

TexasGtar wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:56 pm
I was frustrated that there are a limited number of keyframes a mover had
Movers can also follow any number of PathPoints - see Unreal's map NaliBoat for example (or my conversion MH-NaliBoat(SB)).
"Multiple exclamation marks," he went on, shaking his head, "are a sure sign of a diseased mind." --Terry Pratchett

Buggie
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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by Buggie » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:34 pm

As I recently found, AssessBotAttitude not always help:
Buggie wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:23 am
Note: This help not in all cases. Sometimes bots still attack TeamCannon not in ActiveCannon state. Sometime bots unexpectedly shoot Nali after few minutes walk near him. Possible Bugs in Bots code.
It look like me and 15 Bots try argue Nali do his job.
In fact 15 bots wandering near, I try argue Nali.
Nali constantly switch between players/bots and constantly think "hey, you too far from me, I will stay here and call you".
Finally he start walking stop near each seconds.
But one bot suddenly shot him from flak.
womp womp woOOomp
Story ends.

Morale of story:
Nali WILL be shoot by bots (even by players). Accidentally or deliberately.
Nali CAN pick up wrong player as target, so you can jump around try make him cooperative without any luck.
Nali VERY bad choice for critical part of game if in game more than one player or some players very dumb (bots). In fact you can only count for self. So SP without bots is only one option.

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sektor2111
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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by sektor2111 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:53 pm

You can look at "FindSpecialAttraction" from MonsterHunt, not only Bot's attitude might participate in stage in future works... It's about wreck UnrealShare code, SetEnemy more exactly, it's why MonsterHunt engages the war or else you won't see too much Bot VS Monster combat. However this function from MH it's launching war without exceptions - ALL ScriptedPawns are called in combat and Bots as well, no discrimination. Here is not much to do with map as mapping subject, it's not part of mapping, it's game controller code, that plain MonsterHunt it's no longer an option for me from a few years, it's only support at making MH maps and nothing else - old story.

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TexasGtar
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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by TexasGtar » Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:59 pm

Barbie wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:53 am
TexasGtar wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:56 pm
I was frustrated that there are a limited number of keyframes a mover had
Movers can also follow any number of PathPoints - see Unreal's map NaliBoat for example (or my conversion MH-NaliBoat(SB)).
Wow, I didn't know that. That is cool.

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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by Swanky » Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:51 pm

Hellkeeper wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:42 pm
Swanky wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:26 am
I find it harder and harder to come up with interesting layouts that feel liks they haven't been done to death. Of course, after twenty some years and tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of maps later, this is going to be a challenge in itself.
I feel this. Back in the early 2010s, everything I tried to make ended up feeling like this map or that one, or a mix of this and that or is clearly "Map x but with a different floorplan".
After a while I learned to embrace it and I just decided to go in thinking "I want to make a map that feels like X" or "A map that is inspired by this screenshot of X but with one floor above", etc. Once you let go, you end up making really original stuff out of things that you feel like you copied everywhere and nobody but me sees the similarity. It really helps me get in new maps relaxed and optimistic whereas I used to start map feeling miserable and only enjoying the last steps when it had evolved into something more personnal. :)
Good approach I guess. I still have a couple of unfinished layouts lying about. If time permits, I should probably go back and take 'em for a spin, see where they end up. Sometimes I also have a very specific image in my head of what I want to achieve. Then I get into the editor (or the editor of the game, doesn't necessarily mean it's UT) and see nothing fits size wise, like the layout cutting in places where I don't want it to cut into itself. :D

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Hellkeeper
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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by Hellkeeper » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:22 pm

Swanky wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:51 pm
Then I get into the editor (or the editor of the game, doesn't necessarily mean it's UT) and see nothing fits size wise, like the layout cutting in places where I don't want it to cut into itself. :D
Obviously we have the exact same way of going at it because this happens to me all the time. I constantly get frustrated because what I thought was a great and easy level ends up being physically impossible because I need a wall here with a thickness of 0 or because I just don't have the space there for a player to go this way, etc. Sometimes it drives me up the wall, sometimes I just go with the flow and roll with it: I need a way to go from here to there but there's no space? I'll just make a passage around this area and see how it ends up.
It's also probably why most of the work I put in a map is work that's invisible: tons of attemps at doing stuff just to realize it doesn't work and I have to do something else. I now accept that tons of work with nothing to show for it is still work done, if only because you now know what you can't do or what doesn't work.
You must construct additional pylons.

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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by PrinceOfFunky » Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:34 am

It's little details usually.
Time ago I modeled a bike that I added in DM-3072-ItalyKinda:
bike_1.png
it also has pedals :D
pedals_1.png
Also modeled a phone cab and placed it in DM-(NotYet)Condemned:
phone_cab_1.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
"Your stuff is known to be buggy and unfinished/not properly tested"

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TexasGtar
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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by TexasGtar » Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:31 am

Love that bicycle. Very cool looking.

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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by papercoffee » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:51 am

You could have made the spokes with a texture.

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jmartin
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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by jmartin » Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:40 am

The ZERO PROPERTIES bug.

In the editor, if you right-click on any object and pull up its "Properties" menu then click OFF the object, the editor will crash.

UnrealEd does not like having an open Properties menu with no data to fill the arrays.

In the frantic heat of editing, this is a VERY common and easy mistake to make, resulting in the loss of many minutes or even hours of work.

That's why mappers learn very quickly to SAVE YOUR WORK OFTEN.

One trick to retrieve lost work is to load your Autoplay.unr in the editor.

It will retrieve the last version of whatever map you last Play-tested.

=====================
On a more personal note.

I almost, ALMOST gave up on DM-Counterfeits.

Took FOREVER to collect and process all the 300+ textures

Took FOREVER to construct each individual building.

When it came time to actually place the buildings in the base map it took about 30 minutes for each building.

And I had 42 of them.

Attach all the pieces, line it up correctly, flip, scale and align textures and VPans, make sure nothing is touching a transparent polygon. . .

After about the 3rd building I was like... "SCREW THIS".

But then I just said to myself... "Just do 3 buildings, then come back tomorrow."

The next day, I added 3 more.

The day after that I added 3 more.

After 14 days, the map was complete.

Image

Image

Image

.

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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by Buggie » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:16 am

jmartin wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:40 am
The ZERO PROPERTIES bug.

In the editor, if you right-click on any object and pull up its "Properties" menu then click OFF the object, the editor will crash.
Use v469b.

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Hellkeeper
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Re: What was the hardest thing you came across while working on maps?

Post by Hellkeeper » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:22 am

jmartin wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:40 am
That's why mappers learn very quickly to SAVE YOUR WORK OFTEN.

One trick to retrieve lost work is to load your Autoplay.unr in the editor.

It will retrieve the last version of whatever map you last Play-tested.
All that is true, but you can also activate autosaves and have 10 versions of your maps saved in 10 minutes increments. :)
You must construct additional pylons.