Xalian71's Maps

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sektor2111
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by sektor2111 »

Red_Fist wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:57 am Otherwise he is ,,dumb as a rock,, :P
That's why I'll write more other small things for UT :lol2: .
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EvilGrins
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by EvilGrins »

sektor2111 wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:33 am
Red_Fist wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:57 am Otherwise he is ,,dumb as a rock,, :P
That's why I'll write more other small things for UT :lol2: .
Boys, boys... no need for harsh words. You must settle this in the ancient way, find a neutral server and battle each other to the death.
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Xalian71
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by Xalian71 »

SpaceStation is a deathmatch map I made. Its layout is actually a copy of a map I created for Duke Nukem 3D which I called "DJ.MAP" and which found its way onto the August 1997 edition of PC Gamer magazine's accompanying CD as an addon. A proud moment for me indeed.

There are several rooms linked by corridors, each room having its own style. One of them is a dark room.

Players have clear lines of sight across long distances through invisible "windows" in rooms and corridors so the element of surprise should get you several frags as you take down opponents before they even know what's hit them.

There are also false walls here and there, one hiding a teleporter, one hiding a room entry point, others hiding pick-ups, one accessing a little hiding place in a corridor, and there's also one in the dark room.

There is also a transporter pod that travels between corridor ends when activated, allowing access to the armory.

Don't step out of the corridor ends into space, and don't step out of the transporter pod into space while it's moving as this will result in almost instant suicide.

I know that the layout and fake wall positioning is a bit weird and random, but when I made the original Duke Nukem 3D map I was just experimenting with the Build editor and trying stuff. I also had no idea how to make a good deathmatch map, so all the more surprising it was for me when PC Gamer liked my map.

So see what you think. If you think it's crap I totally understand. It's just something to try if you feel like it.

PS: Flying around in the background are a Space Shuttle and Star Trek's USS Enterprise ship - just for decoration of course.

https://www.mediafire.com/file/brh3q55m ... 6.unr/file
SpaceStation 01.jpg
SpaceStation 02.jpg
SpaceStation 03.jpg
SpaceStation 06.jpg
SpaceStation 08.jpg
SpaceStation 10.jpg
SpaceStation 11.jpg
SpaceStation 12.jpg
SpaceStation 14.jpg
SpaceStation 16.jpg
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Last edited by Xalian71 on Sun Dec 04, 2022 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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EvilGrins
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by EvilGrins »

As those that know, I always test maps with bots first. For CTF that's the usual 4 to a team scenario.

Sky Wire
Bots do not leave the starting area of their base, which makes play a little difficult as they never really go anywhere. Sometimes they'll wander into the trolly between bases but that's accidental and they don't leave it when they get to the other side.
Image Image
The trolley between bases works fine, only seen this really successfully done on 2 other CTF maps. Map is well lit, though fairly uniform lighting everywhere... except for the starting point.

Divide and Jumper
There appears to be some pathing, judging how the bots handle things, but not much. Bots seem to favor 1 of the 3 jumppads on both sides but the moment they get to the other side, they immediately turn around and jump to their deaths in the chasm between the 2 sides.
Image Image
Seems one of the PlayerStarts on the Blue Team is set for Red, as occasionally a Red Team member spawns over on Blue's side.

Lava Dome
I really don't check pathing other than how bots handle a map, but this one seems to have the best pathing of these 3 I'm reviewing here.
Image Image
Bots seem to go everywhere, and despite the narrow paths they do manage to score semi-often.
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Xalian71
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by Xalian71 »

Thanks for checking all that out EvilGrins.

I removed some elements from the SkyWire map before posting it as I presumed it would only be played by humans, not Bots, which is why the Bots don't know what to do. I do have versions of it that include lift exit triggers for the Bots in which they use the trollies well, and can even call a trolley from its opposite side when they want to enter it (which humans can't). They seem to follow the Bot pathing well except they randomly jump to their deaths for no apparent reason. If you like I'll post a version with good Bot pathing and lift exit triggers.

I did add Bot pathing to the Divide and Jumper map, and I too noticed that the Bots had a tendency to jump to their deaths. I don't know why though because none of the Bot pathing leads them to do that, nor are there any triggers that would make them do it, so I just don't know how to solve it. Not sure why they favor only 1 of the jump pads either. There are pick-ups on all of the jump pads which should entice the Bots when they're near, leading them to enter the jump trigger radius, causing them to be flung across the chasm.

LavaDome definitely has Bot pathing and I've also noticed that the Bots seem to handle everything well.

LavaRun also has Bot pathing and I recall the Bots using it well and scoring.

The SpaceStation DM map also has Bot pathing but the Bots seem to struggle with exiting the water. Not sure if there should be a trigger there for them. Other than that I haven't extensively tested that map with the Bots so I don't know how they handle the buttons or if they can use the Transporter.
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sektor2111
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by sektor2111 »

EvilGrins wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:02 pm Boys, boys... no need for harsh words.
I did not see any harsh word, not today... but, because you have often asked me things concerning maps and now we have the right way of posting something, let me show you a bit of data more faster than "testing" bots and wasting more time - if it comes to your addiction for Bots.
In stage
CTF-LavaRun
Bot support is like here...
Lava_Run.PNG
CTF-LavaDome
The stage goes this way...
Lava_Dome.PNG
These two are perfect with regard to Bots.

The other two are ....., if it comes to a Bot gaming... We are not chasing too much items because it's CTF, but we might be interested to find the flag...
CTF-SkyWire4

Code: Select all

FlagBase1: Route Not Found from PlayerStart0...
FlagBase1: Route Not Found from PlayerStart1...
FlagBase1: Route Not Found from PlayerStart3...
...
FlagBase0: Route Not Found from PlayerStart14...
FlagBase0: Route Not Found from PlayerStart15...
FlagBase0: Route Not Found from PlayerStart16...
It doesn't seems planned for Bots...
That's all for now. The other Magic is not for ON-Line at all, it has SPACES in name which raises issues concerning downloading from redirects. In other hand I have never seen stock maps and stock files using SPACES. You can happily forget such "naming conventions".

DM Chapter
Stage DM-SpaceStation6.unr.
To me it doesn't seems too much like DM map. I not only have to fight with skilled enemies but it looks like I have to fight against map as well...
Questions about Bots ? I'll try my best explanations without words...
Imaging... Can you see a bug sample ?
Space_Station6.PNG
The rest was printed...

Code: Select all

ScanProcess: Total checks using DevPath = 826.
Flaws: There were 500 attempts to reach at inventories.
Different view: From 826 tests we have 500 "attempts" - using term "attempts" not "failures" because some of them might be taken during game based on battling situations, geometry conditions, either way they don't seems to include valid routes from PlayerStarts.

The Info Subject:
With regard to CTF-Divide_And_Jumper.unr aka CTF-Divide And Jumper.unr
I did add Bot pathing to the Divide and Jumper map, and I too noticed that the Bots had a tendency to jump to their deaths.
This is doubtful a little bit or more. I don't see any path linking mid area...
DivideAndJumper.PNG
And then community has those so called "W00t" maps or "Woot", there is shown a good solution nearby stock methods using what we call Navigation Combos.
Here is how does it look like a "jumper map" with Bot Support.
Obviously_Operational.PNG
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by EvilGrins »

Very informative, sekt!

I like using the bots as it helps me visualize the whole thing, just checking in editor doesn't do it for me in regards to pathing because even with it doesn't tell me if they're facing the right way for defense points or if they will ride a lift correctly. Given I largely don't play online, how the bots handle a map is very key to me.
sektor2111 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 7:55 amyour addiction for Bots.
I'm not addicted, I can give up bots whenever I want!
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by OjitroC »

A couple more points on CTF-Divide and Jumper
1 There's no default gametype set so when played from the Editor the map plays as a DM map;
2 The sniper rifles by the kickers are a little too low - they are not picked up by the Player when passing over them.

Buggie's MapChecker reports that the Red Flagbase is (a) too low and (b) has the wrong colour skin. This tool also reports that the sniper rifles are too low.

I checked all the PlayerStarts and they are correctly assigned to the appropriate team.

The Redeemer on the Red side has 999 ammo - the one on the Blue side only 2.

It might be an idea to provide some cover for the PlayerStarts as, once one is aware where they are, it is fairly easy to snipe pawns as they spawn (though this can be fun, as in Face).

I presume bots all the use the same kicker as it is the one nearest to the PlayerStarts - to get them to use all the kickers I think you would need to distribute the PlayerStarts more widely.
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by Xalian71 »

Thanks so much guys for all your pointers. sektor2111 you really know your stuff. Respect!

I've changed the file name to suit the correct naming practice.

The pick-ups on the jump pads were placed there ONLY to lure the Bots to the jump pads, not to be picked up, however since the significance of playing with the Bots is much higher than I thought, I've moved the jump pad pick-ups so that they can actually be picked up. Unfortunately now that I've done that the Bots aren't going for the jump pads at all.

Not that it seemed to affect gameplay, but I've also raised the red flag up a little. The Bots were still going for it, and were able to grab it previously though.

I don't know anything about flag skins so not sure what to do there, but again gameplay seems to work fine with whatever the skin setting is or isn't currently.

I've also placed lift centre actors on the jump pads but they don't seem to be making any difference to the Bot behavior. It seems, as you pointed out sektor, that there need to be Bot path links across the chasm so I'm educating myself on how to achieve that.

Not sure why Buggie's MapChecker showed the Redeemer ammo counts as 999 and 2, because they're both set for 999, and I've checked in-game, and 999 is what you get on both sides when grabbing the Redeemer. I'm also wondering if there's actually any place for the Redeemer weapon in a CTF map, so I might change that to a more appropriate weapon.

I also don't know why red team players are spawning at the blue base, and vice versa, but I'll look into that.

I've set the level default to CTF as well, and it now launches as such from the editor.

I'll post again regarding the Bot pathing. Hopefully I'll learn how to get it right for the Bots to not only stop just milling around aimlessly, but to immediately go for the jump pads.

As for the SpaceStation DM map, I only created it so as to have a UT99 version of the Duke Nukem 3D DM map that I created in 1997, so it is of course fraught with flaws. I haven't tested it extensively, nor did I think it would be needed for Bot play. I presumed that online it would only attract human gameplay.

sektor sorry but I'm so inexperienced that I can't even see what you're getting at regarding the "bug sample". I'm sure your trained eye goes straight to it but I don't even know what I should be looking for there.

Thanks again you guys. I'm very impressed with the amount of interest there's been in my maps. I'm hoping some of them find their way to people's servers to bring some Xalian style fun to UT99 gaming.
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by OjitroC »

Xalian71 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:41 pm
Not sure why Buggie's MapChecker showed the Redeemer ammo counts as 999 and 2, because they're both set for 999, and I've checked in-game, and 999 is what you get on both sides when grabbing the Redeemer.
No, that was me, not Buggie's MapChecker. I played the map from the Editor in 469c Release and first collected the Red Redeemer which had 999 ammo, which surprised me - so I dropped it and went to look at the Blue Redeemer which only had 2. Rechecked that in-game (not started from the Editor) and that is what I get - however on respawn the Redeemer on the Red side only has 2 ammo. Still it probably is best to leave them out - probably overkill in this map - someone with a Redeemer with 999 ammo could simply spawn nukes on the Blue PlayerStarts for example.

Re the flags - go to each FlagBase in the Editor and check out the flag texture - you will see they are both the same (the Blue flag) - this is reported by both sektor's MapGarbage and Buggie's MapChecker tools.

Just to note that the 'jump pads' are actually kickers, which are different and less effective than Jump Pads. Search out swJumpPad which are used in W00t maps.
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by fudgonaut »

OjitroC wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:04 am Search out swJumpPad which are used in W00t maps.
:tu:


Useful info on using swJumpPad
Xalian71
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by Xalian71 »

Thanks for your feedback there guys on my DivideAndJumper map (the name of which is hopefully obvious to all as a play on the term "Divide and Conquer".

I did notice that in the editor both flags were blue, but in-game there's a red and a blue so I didn't think it mattered, however if it is indeed a factor I will correct it.

I will definitely educate myself on swJumpPads however I have no idea what W00t maps are. I'm pretty sure my map is not a W00t map, so I don't know if that means swJumpPads won't work in it.

Anyway I'll keep working at it because I really want to get the Bots working correctly in this map.
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by fudgonaut »

Xalian71 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:16 am I have no idea what W00t maps are.
There are a bunch of CTF maps that use swJumpPads extensively, here are just a few:

CTF-ironW00T
CTF-XMC-AlphaWOOT
CTF-w00tabulous
CTF-FNB-TrekWOOT

You get the idea.

More info on swJumpPad, and a bunch of w00t maps here
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by Xalian71 »

Thanks fudgonaut. I'm always glad to learn new stuff about UT99.

I haven't uploaded it yet, but I've added lift exit actors and the Bots are going for the kickers.

Problem is they grab the flag then don't know what to do with it. I'm thinking the Bot pathing is the problem.

So I'll change the pathing layout and ensure closed circuit paths exist from the home team's flag to the opponent's flag and back to the home team's flag.

I'll advise if it's worked and of course I'll upload the updated map and update the link to it.
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Re: Xalian71's Maps

Post by fudgonaut »

Xalian71 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:41 am SpaceStation is a deathmatch map I made. Its layout is actually a copy of a map I created for Duke Nukem 3D which I called "DJ.MAP" and which found its way onto the August 1997 edition of PC Gamer magazine's accompanying CD as an addon. A proud moment for me indeed.
That's really cool! I remember playing that map!
Xalian71 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:03 pm I haven't uploaded it yet, but I've added lift exit actors and the Bots are going for the kickers.
I recommend using swJumpPad instead of kickers. They work seamlessly as path nodes, are easy to use, and highly configurable. I was (for better or for worse) able to create some highly targeted jump pads using swJumpPad in CTF-NRMC-Gravitation, part of the NRMC mapppack.
Xalian71 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:03 pm Thanks fudgonaut. I'm always glad to learn new stuff about UT99.
Aside from the helpful folks in this forum, one of the best ways to learn new stuff is to look at other maps in the editor -- especially the UT99.org and FOT mappacks. They are treasure troves of cumulative knowledge and techniques.